Australian Representative Herp Body

[Ramsayi]

I think approaching the various herp societies around the country and asking them for feedback from their members would be a good way to get a handle on the level of interest in the idea.

 

[beautifulpythons]

Interesting thread, for a change..


I'll echo Shamat's post and I'm sure most members here would.


Here's my 2c anyways:


1. If we think as a hobby that things will change by putting up a thread on a forum frequented by as little as 50 people a day (despite the silly stats of '300 members online' you may see..) then we have already shot ourselves in the foot.


2. Less than 1% of herpers frequent these online forums and even less are members of a LOCAL herp society let alone a national one.


3. As has been mentioned several times, everyone has an agenda. Everyone is also an expert, who knows better. Well, you don't. Those who tried to negotiate years ago with NPWS could not have had more experience, or the thoughts, goals and concerns of the average keeper more in their minds when they went through that and yet the brick wall stayed up.


4. Those who speak of Court challenges have NO idea of what's involved in that, High Court challenge !? For starters it's about $1,000,000 for the high Court fee, let alone the fact that if a Reptile Import case ever came across the bench it would be used as toilet paper.


5. Change takes years, and by the time it happens, the reptile scene would have changed that much that the change you all want will probably be redundant. I stepped away from the hobby for 3 years after having a child and can honestly say the change has been incredible, and not for the better of the hobby, the laws or the most important part of our hobby, the Herps themselves.


So, what to do?


For starters:


1. Support those who have your interests at heart (maybe not ALL of them, but the majority anyways). Once some form of draft is written about what the hobby is not happy with, you need support from the masses before any politics are involved. Law reform comes with changing community values. If as a community we want things done, INVOLVE the community. Not 20 members off a forum not known for appreciating some of its most experienced members. Start with reptile retail outlets, herp societies, equipment sellers and let them know what your plan is.. The more people you get to support it the better.


2. Go and join a local herp society and tell all your reptile buddies to do the same


3. Those who tried originally should try again, I know Jamie well and have met Gavin a number of times and no one is more passionate about reptiles. But they need your support, not 5minute experts who keep a carpet python telling them they don't know what they are doing..


4. How many herp keepers are solicitors? Put your hand up for some volunteer work and work with those who need it.


5. Less talk, more action. Most people do the right thing and as Jamie mentioned its the 1-2 % of cowboys who set us all back. The reptile industry has the potential to be big business and with that we neglect the animals, and every time we do this we give more and more material for the anti's to jump up and down about.


Anyways thats probably more like 5c worth.. Sorry..

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I agree Jamie, after getting stonewalled with DEC for a couple of years, WAHS went down the lobbying route and have been able to slowly bring about change to the WA system. Our recent meeting had DPaW officers requesting we discuss issues with them first and give them the opportunity to resolve the issues rather than approach the minister. But the reality is to get a national group up and running you need to a committed group (10+ years), with set goals and you need to have a thick skin as there is plenty out there who'll tell how thing should be done or how better a job they would do after all the work is done or claim the glory after the event, but ask them for effort during the process and the silence is only broken by the lame excuses.

Its a pity the national group didn't get off the ground as every state is looking to "review" the wildlife laws with a view to standardise the laws. DPaW is looking at minimum cage sizes in WA and is in the process of looking to replacing the Wildlife Conservation Regs with the to be announced Biodiversity Conservation Bill. From what I have read it will effect the non R&A keepers more than us as the system looks to be based on the R&A system.

Ha! The notion of approaching the Dept first to "resolve" issues is them just saying that if they know the direction in which you are going, they can head you off at the pass, and when, out of frustration you go to the Minister, the Dept officers will simply say, when they get a Ministerial enquiry, that they've already discussed it and made their decision. They've been unreasonable for over 20 years, and they're never going to give in if they don't have to, even without Peter Mawson's influence. Keep the pressure directly on the Minister and expose the problems as they arise. Government Dept heads hate Ministerials, because they HAVE to respond constructively (although perhaps not with this current bunch of Federal incompetents...)

- - - Updated - - -

Interesting thread, for a change..


I'll echo Shamat's post and I'm sure most members here would.


Here's my 2c anyways:


1. If we think as a hobby that things will change by putting up a thread on a forum frequented by as little as 50 people a day (despite the silly stats of '300 members online' you may see..) then we have already shot ourselves in the foot.


2. Less than 1% of herpers frequent these online forums and even less are members of a LOCAL herp society let alone a national one.


3. As has been mentioned several times, everyone has an agenda. Everyone is also an expert, who knows better. Well, you don't. Those who tried to negotiate years ago with NPWS could not have had more experience, or the thoughts, goals and concerns of the average keeper more in their minds when they went through that and yet the brick wall stayed up.


4. Those who speak of Court challenges have NO idea of what's involved in that, High Court challenge !? For starters it's about $1,000,000 for the high Court fee, let alone the fact that if a Reptile Import case ever came across the bench it would be used as toilet paper.


5. Change takes years, and by the time it happens, the reptile scene would have changed that much that the change you all want will probably be redundant. I stepped away from the hobby for 3 years after having a child and can honestly say the change has been incredible, and not for the better of the hobby, the laws or the most important part of our hobby, the Herps themselves.


So, what to do?


For starters:


1. Support those who have your interests at heart (maybe not ALL of them, but the majority anyways). Once some form of draft is written about what the hobby is not happy with, you need support from the masses before any politics are involved. Law reform comes with changing community values. If as a community we want things done, INVOLVE the community. Not 20 members off a forum not known for appreciating some of its most experienced members. Start with reptile retail outlets, herp societies, equipment sellers and let them know what your plan is.. The more people you get to support it the better.


2. Go and join a local herp society and tell all your reptile buddies to do the same


3. Those who tried originally should try again, I know Jamie well and have met Gavin a number of times and no one is more passionate about reptiles. But they need your support, not 5minute experts who keep a carpet python telling them they don't know what they are doing..


4. How many herp keepers are solicitors? Put your hand up for some volunteer work and work with those who need it.


5. Less talk, more action. Most people do the right thing and as Jamie mentioned its the 1-2 % of cowboys who set us all back. The reptile industry has the potential to be big business and with that we neglect the animals, and every time we do this we give more and more material for the anti's to jump up and down about.


Anyways thats probably more like 5c worth.. Sorry..

All excellent suggestions matey, and a good reality check re legal challenges from someone in the know!

Jamie

 

[chimerapro]

I hope this link is aloud as many have asked for this yet nobody has stepped up to the plate (I did months ago to show my support in my own little way) We all need to put the petty differences aside and show support to the cause regardless of who, what, why ect.
www.facebook.com/NARKRB

 

[solar 17]

"Nothing has changed" When you read this thread with the personal attacks and you look at the last Herp club that was started in Ipswich not long back that "had" to be at a hotel because ppl couldn't go to a (hobby) meeting without drinking (booze)and then ended up in court after a brawl and ppl wonder why we (as a hobby) DON'T get anywhere....holey schmoley.

 

[RedFox]

I don't have anything to really add to this thread but I think it is an excellent idea and would support it. The chances of massive restrictions being placed on the hobby in the distant and not so distant future which would be detrimental to my enjoyment or the possibility of keeping these wonderful animals is fairly high, if we continue the way we are. At the moment, any voice, even if I don't agree with all their decisions, I would see as beneficial to the hobby as a whole, even if it does take many years to become large and powerful enough to have any political sway. As a young keeper ( I'm 20 y.o), I feel my age group has the most to gain long term from an established representative body. I hope to still be able to own and enjoy my herps in 40+ yrs time.

 

[hayden123113]

I like don't have anything to really add to this thread but I think it is an excellent idea and would support it. The chances of massive restrictions being placed on the hobby in the distant and not so distant future which would be detrimental to my enjoyment or the possibility of keeping these wonderful animals is fairly high, if we continue the way we are. At the moment, any voice, even if I don't agree with all their decisions, I would see as beneficial to the hobby as a whole, even if it does take many years to become large and powerful enough to have any political sway. As a young keeper ( I'm 20 y.o), I feel my age group has the most to gain long term from an established representative body. I hope to still be able to own and enjoy my herps in 40+ yrs time.

I have to completely agree, I have nothing to add but I feel I need to show my support, as red fox said as a young keeper I have the most to gain out of this.

 

[RoryBreaker]

Maybe one of the larger Herpetological Societies could 'run the ball up' and host a national conference to discuss the matter?

If it coincided with one of the bigger expos it could draw a larger audience than a stand alone weekend, as many interstate keepers already make the journey. If it were to occur next year, that would give keepers plenty of notice to plan on attending.

Cheers,
Dave.

ps. It sort of rules out SEQld as a possibility as there isn't at this stage a strong enough society in existence.

 

[RedFox]

Keep in mind this is simplified and idealistic but... wouldn't AHS be the logical choice for holding a conference? It has a long history, an impressive past and present member list and is located in NSW where the majority of Expos are and also where the COP has been imposed. WAHS could push the idea in WA at the expo later this year/early next year. VHS could do the same in VIC. I don't know which society would step up in QLD.

 

[Bushman]

I agree that the Australian Herpetological Society is a logical choice, as it embodies the national herp spirit.

This is an encouraging restart. Let's make it happen!

I pledge my support.

 

[longirostris]

Interesting thread, for a change..


I'll echo Shamat's post and I'm sure most members here would.


Here's my 2c anyways:


1. If we think as a hobby that things will change by putting up a thread on a forum frequented by as little as 50 people a day (despite the silly stats of '300 members online' you may see..) then we have already shot ourselves in the foot.


2. Less than 1% of herpers frequent these online forums and even less are members of a LOCAL herp society let alone a national one.


3. As has been mentioned several times, everyone has an agenda. Everyone is also an expert, who knows better. Well, you don't. Those who tried to negotiate years ago with NPWS could not have had more experience, or the thoughts, goals and concerns of the average keeper more in their minds when they went through that and yet the brick wall stayed up.

4. Those who speak of Court challenges have NO idea of what's involved in that, High Court challenge !? For starters it's about $1,000,000 for the high Court fee, let alone the fact that if a Reptile Import case ever came across the bench it would be used as toilet paper.

5. Change takes years, and by the time it happens, the reptile scene would have changed that much that the change you all want will probably be redundant. I stepped away from the hobby for 3 years after having a child and can honestly say the change has been incredible, and not for the better of the hobby, the laws or the most important part of our hobby, the Herps themselves.


So, what to do?


For starters:


1. Support those who have your interests at heart (maybe not ALL of them, but the majority anyways). Once some form of draft is written about what the hobby is not happy with, you need support from the masses before any politics are involved. Law reform comes with changing community values. If as a community we want things done, INVOLVE the community. Not 20 members off a forum not known for appreciating some of its most experienced members. Start with reptile retail outlets, herp societies, equipment sellers and let them know what your plan is.. The more people you get to support it the better.


2. Go and join a local herp society and tell all your reptile buddies to do the same


3. Those who tried originally should try again, I know Jamie well and have met Gavin a number of times and no one is more passionate about reptiles. But they need your support, not 5minute experts who keep a carpet python telling them they don't know what they are doing..


4. How many herp keepers are solicitors? Put your hand up for some volunteer work and work with those who need it.


5. Less talk, more action. Most people do the right thing and as Jamie mentioned its the 1-2 % of cowboys who set us all back. The reptile industry has the potential to be big business and with that we neglect the animals, and every time we do this we give more and more material for the anti's to jump up and down about.


Anyways thats probably more like 5c worth.. Sorry..

Normally I would not respond to this, however, as I think that I am the only one in this thread that has mentoned a challenge to the states regulations regarding interstate movement of reptiles through the court system and in particular the High Court I unfortunately have no option but to respond.

Quite frankly I don't know you or even know who you are so your desultory remarks are interesting to say the least. I hope there is no malice in them. As I say, I am not sure why there would be given the fact we do not appear to know each other. I will asume then that this is your normal manner of discussing a point of view that you disagree with or perhaps even think is ridiculous as indeed I am sure there are many here who like you may find my proposal preposterous.

Again quite frankly, your comments are not well researched at all and clearly you have overstepped your mark by accussing those of us (me) who espoused said challenge as having "NO idea". You make a very bold statement there is what I will say. How do you know what idea I have of the process of a High Court challenge? My counsel to you would be to think clearly about what you have to say about anything you may wish to denigrate, by belittling the comments of others particularly where you make an accusation that may in fact be incorrect. In this case you have made several comments that are in fact incorrect.

I guess this is what others are talking about when they refer to disparaging remarks and people who get on here and insult others for no real or apparent reason other then to express their point of view. I must admit this is probably the first time on this forum I have been on the receiving end of such a tirade demonstrating such blatant disrespect for a suggestion or comment I have made. So I suppose I have been lucky.

For my part I count Gavin Bedford as a personal friend. Even though I have not spoken to him for several months, I have spoken to him about this issue and I have offered my support for this cause as indeed have many others out there. My issue is none to dissimilar to Gavin's in that time for me is a scarce resource and therefor whilst I am happy to be involved and support the concept of a National Body for the hobby my involvement would be very limited as indeed I am sure is the case with most people in the hobby.

I do not wish to pick a fight here, I am just suggesting that people need to think about what they are going to say if they are going to chop down someone elses view point or comments on any given topic.

If you want me to elaborate, I am more than happy to, although quite frankly I think I have made my point and therefor see no need for and will spare any further embarassment.

Mark Hawker

 

[zulu]

NPWS has plenty of money for court cases, you would have to have something more pressing than imports and exports to be willing to take them to court.
While we have regional governments in australia its easier to address issues through regional herpetological societies.

 

[solar 17]

Just on this Import/export state to state issue, The Australian Parrot Society which is based in Brisbane actually challenged along these lines engaging a QC but eventually it fell over although high costs were expected they quickly became outragious and there was some serious money put forward and the QC it may have been a SC l dont remember that exact point but this was in the mid 90's straight after the imports (legal) ceased following that outbreak of Newcastle Desease the bottom line was/is its not a black and white area as some ppl feel it maybe. solar 17 ~B~

 

[-Peter]

No it isn't black and white, if it was it would not need to be challenged in the Federal Court but as you correctly state the cost would be big and the industry at present could not support such a challenge even if the birdos came on board. Perhaps that isn't the main focus though.
Personally, I would be willing to pay a nominal amount to a legally formed organisation with a steering committee and interim constitution that addressed the representative concerns of reptile keepers. I don't have the legs or the fire anymore to be involved. I have been there for too long and too many times in my life. Time for younger hearts to take up the cudgels of democracy but I'm willing to pay for a cudgel.

 

[solar 17]

"Peter" l believe you may have touched on an idea with bringing the bird ppl on board as they are a far more united front, l seriously don't believe the herp movement is united enough or have the folding ($) to handle such an issue with those courts requiring five figures plus "a day" to run them/us into a serious challenge but l do "think" zulu got it wrong as l dont believe state govts. depts. atm have extra cash to throw around. solar 17 ~B~

 

[zulu]

Governments find pots of money for legal representation when they are challenged,dont think anything has changed. Like royal commissions that cost a fortune ,they love them ,its all part of the hot air industry.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Longirostris, your response is unnecessarily defensive - you make it sound as though beautifulpythons is attacking you personally. I defend bps response - like many who have been involved with reptile keeping politics, I have acquainted myself with the cost of legal representation in most jurisdictions, and the cost of solicitors and barristers, even in the lower courts are very high indeed. When you get to the highest court in the land and you challenge constitutional matters, the expertise you draw upon is astronomically expensive. Bp is university educated in law and knows what he is talking about, but it is this sort of bitchy infighting that stops good people with useful knowledge from contributing. Develop a thicker skin and get on with solving the real problems we face, or leave it to those who can remain focused on the issues. The relative costs of legal action are pointless to dispute or debate at this point in time.

But this is putting the cart WAY before the horse. There are many more pressing issues that need to be considered before we get anywhere near court action of any sort. Useful thread so far, lets keep it focused on discussing the issues.

A comment about the birdos - the probably are a bit more politically savvy than herp keepers at this point in time beacause they've been doing it for far longer and there may be more more money involved at the top end, but they are far fewer in number than reptile keepers across the country - they number about 20% of what we have licensed.

Jamie

 

[Bluetongue1]

It is often difficult to know whether people are offering wisdom based on experience or jaded opinions due to past experience. I am sure i have seen both in this thread.


Import/export duties are an "in your face" imposition for anyone transferring animals interestate. There is Commonwealth trade legislation preventing duties to maintain open trade between states. The duties on animal transfers would seem to be in contravention of the free trade legislation.

The legislation that stipulates the duties on intestate transfers of animals was put into place by government who have all their legislation checked and worded by their legal advisors who specialise in laws and legislation. They would have been very aware of the existing commonwealth legislation and yet the still decided there was no conflict. They ocassionally get it wrong but not very often.

The commonwealth have provided the power to states and territories to maintain their wildlife. This includes transferring records from one state or territory to another. This in turn generates an extra cost in dealing with another regulatory body. I have been told that this cost is recouped through transfer duties.

Bottom line... for any one of a number of reasons, this is a send to the back of the list item. If people could put their thoughts and efforts into addressing more readily resolvable issues that would be preferable from here forward. Thanks.

Blue

 

[champagne]

I'm not sure where all this talk of courts came from? I thought we were working toward having political representation as a hobby. we might be more successful if instead of trying fight the government in court, where they have pretty much unlimited resources. We instead use political pressure to improve the licensing system. Either way I think we should be trying to start with the small problems and working toward the big ones.

1. 6 month transfer period reduced or removed
2. Caging requirements changed from "rules" to "guide lines only" or removed all together

imports/exports and being able to keep all species in all states are both issues that defiantly need to be fixed. They are very big issues tho that will take a lot of resources to achieve, it might be better if we try to get a few small wins under our belt that way the sceptics that are sitting on the side lines will see that it is working and will start to come on board before we tackle the big issues.

 

[fishead]

G'day guys, for what it's worth I'd just like to say a big thank you to those that are giving their time to further our hobby/passion.
You definitely have my support and respect.
Communication is one of my many weak points (just ask wifey) so I'm not much good to you guys in the front line unfortunately. But it does seem clear to me that simply communicating this idea to the average herper is step number one in gaining support from them. Maybe that is one area where us average joes can help. As mentioned via herp clubs, notices in pet shops, person to person etc.
Maybe there needs to be a web site we can point people at that displays the goals and benefits?