BHP toxin immunity

[Elapidae1]

Kookaburras pick up small browns midbody are they immune?

 

[DanN]

Check this out - semi-relevant

Why the cobra is resistant to its own venom? - Dr. Zoltan Takacs

 

[Waterrat]

Interesting, thanks Dan.

 

[cement]

Being a reptile eater, and knowing what they are like when they go in for the kill, they shoot first and ask questions later, they wouldn't distinguish between an adder or a taipan or a keelback. So sooner or later the ones that are immune are going to pass on that gene, hence the bullet proof BHP.
It would be interesting to see a hungry mulga come across a hungry blackhead of the same size.

 

[junglepython2]

He felt that given the fact that current broad spectrum antivenines were as dangerous as the bite itself in many cases, someone should find out what the bhps had in their system that could defeat such a range of toxins.

I've never seen it but he said bhps grab the vens mid body and work their way up to the head before swallowing, thus getting bitten in the process.

He was always looking for a PHD student to take it on but I guess that would be too scary for many.

Any comment?

I'd guess that most resistance is due to receptor changes rather then deactivating components so I doubt you could use it to improve snake bite treatment, but it would be an interesting area to study.

 

[imported_Varanus]

Interesting topic, thanks for sharing. Is it a documented fact that Lacies are immune to elapid venom? Also, I recently had a relocation involving a RBB that was bitten by one of it's own kind. The "victim" was in rehab overnight and dead the next morning, also partially digested, and very smelly.

 

[mmafan555]

I used to know a bloke up here (sadly deceased) named Graham Gow.

He claimed that bhp's were immune to the toxins of taipans, death adders, browns, etc.

He felt that given the fact that current broad spectrum antivenines were as dangerous as the bite itself in many cases, someone should find out what the bhps had in their system that could defeat such a range of toxins.

I've never seen it but he said bhps grab the vens mid body and work their way up to the head before swallowing, thus getting bitten in the process.

He was always looking for a PHD student to take it on but I guess that would be too scary for many.

Any comment?

Didn't Graham Gow also say that Australia has like 21 of the top 25 most venomous snakes in the world..

 

[gillsy]

Yep. familiar with that one. I make a word document first if I'm doing a big spiel these days, then cut and paste.

I do the same for a big post.

 

[nathancl]

That is my point, if they will readily take on large monitors as a prey item, grabbing an Elapid mid boody hardly seems life threatening!

I know of a large BHP (2700mm) collected near Quamby in the early 70's that regurged a V. panoptes around 4 feet total length! I can imagine the smell of that in the back of the car on a 45 deg December day!

HAHAHAHAHA that would be the worse smell! i cant stand it when a mouse gets regurged in my house let alone a half digested panoptes that has probably been feeding on rotting carrion.

 

[waruikazi]

Didn't Graham Gow also say that Australia has like 21 of the top 25 most venomous snakes in the world..

mmafan555, you are not worth wasting my breath on.

 

[SteveNT]

Didn't Graham Gow also say that Australia has like 21 of the top 25 most venomous snakes in the world..

He probably did and was probably bitten by every one of them at one time or another.

He was a top bloke, never hid from his mistakes (and he made a few) and he was always willing to spend time with anyone interested in herps. The world's a poorer place......

Cant find Gordo on your friends list there cobber :?

 

[mmafan555]

He probably did and was probably bitten by every one of them at one time or another.

He was a top bloke, never hid from his mistakes (and he made a few) and he was always willing to spend time with anyone interested in herps. The world's a poorer place......

Cant find Gordo on your friends list there cobber :?

Not saying he isn't/wasn't a good guy.. But come on.... If he really believes that... He is the biggest Australian homer ever...

Edit..

By the way I wasn't aware that he had died.. In that case I fully apologize for that comment..I thought he was alive and thought I would just make a sarcastic/joke comment.. I apologize...that was very disrespectful of me.

 

[Darlyn]

Not saying he isn't/wasn't a good guy.. But come on.... If he really believes that... He is the biggest Australian homer ever...

Edit..

By the way I wasn't aware that he had died.. In that case I fully apologize for that comment..I thought he was alive and thought I would just make a sarcastic/joke comment.. I apologize...that was very disrespectful of me.

Don't you know what deceased means?

 

[CamdeJong]

Studies in Brazil and Venezuela, published in Toxicon in 1991, revealed that natural neurotoxin immunity (tested with snake venom) is the result of a protein, probably glycoprotein, designed to negate the effects of venom. It was also proposed that antihemmorhagic factors were based on the same mechanism. I'd like to study the field post grad as it's not yet comprehensively researched, especially in Australia.

 

[SteveNT]

Not saying he isn't/wasn't a good guy.. But come on.... If he really believes that... He is the biggest Australian homer ever...

Edit..

By the way I wasn't aware that he had died.. In that case I fully apologize for that comment..I thought he was alive and thought I would just make a sarcastic/joke comment.. I apologize...that was very disrespectful of me.

Thanks for the insightful and valuable contribution to the thread. Clearly there is at least 1 bigger Australian homer out there.

Studies in Brazil and Venezuela, published in Toxicon in 1991, revealed that natural neurotoxin immunity (tested with snake venom) is the result of a protein, probably glycoprotein, designed to negate the effects of venom. It was also proposed that antihemmorhagic factors were based on the same mechanism. I'd like to study the field post grad as it's not yet comprehensively researched, especially in Australia.

Mate it is a shame you didn't (or couldnt) put your hand up 10 years ago. Graham had every "raw material" you could possibly need and he was passionate about this line of research.

Good info. Thanks

We have to assume that BHP's get bitten in the process of subduing their prey, it would be hard to believe they don't, but does anybody know of an instance where it has been witnessed? have the effects or lack of actually been recorded post bite?

GG claimed to have witnessed it but with no documentary evidence (tough job in the 70's). He also said he had found a taipan and a death adder inside 2 seperate bhp roadkills. Few roadkills escaped his scalpel.

 

[CamdeJong]

Mate it is a shame you didn't (or couldnt) put your hand up 10 years ago. Graham had every "raw material" you could possibly need and he was passionate about this line of research.

Good info. Thanks

Yeah unfortunately I was halfway through year 5. Huge shame though, would love to have had a chance to meet Graham, one can only imagine the knowledge and experience lost with greats like him. I'm sure it was passed on to the countless people who knew him though, and Snakes of Australia is a permanent member of my glove box =)

 

[SteveNT]

Yeah unfortunately I was halfway through year 5. Huge shame though, would love to have had a chance to meet Graham, one can only imagine the knowledge and experience lost with greats like him. I'm sure it was passed on to the countless people who knew him though, and Snakes of Australia is a permanent member of my glove box =)

I've met many people like Graham but not in this particular field. Most of then never achieved fame or fortune but each was a gem in their own area.

What really kills me is watching the old (and I mean old) Indigenous people up here moving on. The knowledge and skills lost are irreplaceable. I am one of the fortunate people to have spent big time with some of these people and I am a rich man for it.

But such is life.
New knowledges are accumulating as the world turns.

 

[mmafan555]

Don't you know what deceased means?

Yes obviously... I thought he was still alive and an active herpetologist...

By the way I was wrong.. He didn't say that.... Struan Sutherland was the guy who said that Australia has 21 of the top 25.

And stop with all the fake outrage at my comments..I just made a valid point that I now know doesn't even apply for him.

Thanks for the insightful and valuable contribution to the thread. Clearly there is at least 1 bigger Australian homer out there.

Any time... When people make public statements( especially something like that)... they should be questioned and discussed...Nothing disrespectful in my comment( through I once again apologize because it was disrespectful since he is no longer living.) But like I said I made a mistake... He as far as I know never even made the comment.. Struan Sutherland said it..

 

[bally]

BHPs are not the only species immune to elapid venoms. More or less, all reptiles, including lacies, that prey on elapids are immune to their venoms.

Michael, firstly sorry for going back so far in this thread.

I was speaking with Dr bryan Fry not long along whilst with Jonno Lucas on the "immunity" of other reptiles in particular large monitors to elapid venom. He said nothing has been proven but as far as he has worked on it he doesnt believe them to be immune just highly tolerable of the venom. It may be that monitor scales (which contain a slight fragment of bone) are too thick and tough for the elapids to pierce completely and thus a full envenomation does not occur. But saying that this is only a theory thus far. There is cases of monitors dying for elapid bites.

With bhp i expect them to have a higher tolerance but also to be not immune to the venom...

Sorry for high jacking this thread

Cheers Nick

 

[eipper]

there are also cases of elapids eating varanids too.

MMA FAN ...do everyone a favor and go back to wherever you came from and don't let the proverbial door hit you on the way out...your "arguments" are based without fact and you just try to stir the pot....you have now had a crack at two people that are not with us anymore, that had both forgotten more about venom than you will ever learn