Big ideas

[waruikazi]

I'm not attacking anything Sachs. I'm just telling it like it is. I think captive populations are a good idea, i've said that already, as long as they are labelled as what they truly are.

But i think you are wrong, the private keeping is nothing in the overall idea of wildlife/biodiversity conservation as it stands right now. Alot of people posting in this thread seem to me to be saying that these animals need to be brought into the pet trade for conservation reasons. I am of the opinion, and it will take alot to convince me otherwise, that the pet trade will have no long term positive effect on conservation the way it is structured now.

Except for raising awareness!

Lol @ arguing with myself! I feel a bit like MMAfan... :lol:

 

[saximus]

Haha ok fair enough. Well yeah when I get time I'll read the whole thread properly but to me the main message on the doco was general conservation and like you said the pet trade does very little for that

 

[wokka]

Isn't a CB Oenpelli better than a wild one killed by a cane toad. They might never be reintroduced to the wild but a CB Oenpelli is better than none. ther is a chance that if the effect of cane toads can be reduced CB Oenpellis could be reintroduced or that data gleened from CB individuals could benefit wild animals. Even if they dissapear from the wild is it so wrong to have them remain in captivity?

 

[waruikazi]

Isn't a CB Oenpelli better than a wild one killed by a cane toad. They might never be reintroduced to the wild but a CB Oenpelli is better than none. ther is a chance that if the effect of cane toads can be reduced CB Oenpellis could be reintroduced or that data gleened from CB individuals could benefit wild animals. Even if they dissapear from the wild is it so wrong to have them remain in captivity?

Wokka in terms of wild biodiversity a dead wild one is more useful than a captive live one in a private keepers hands, atleast the dead one is going back into the food chain...

Either way, if they become extinct in the wild but still exist in captivity the effect on the environment is exactly the same.

I think it is much better to have them in captivity than no where. But to me, having them in the average private keeper collections, that isn't conservation.

 

[cement]

How about solutions Gordo?
The problems are well known, and the CB hobby/industry is its own animal.
Satellite colonies are only as good as their genetic diversity, but what else is there.
If these types of colonies had no potential, then where does that leave the tassie Devil. Would people as passionate and knowledgeable as JW get involved in a lost cause?
It is private funding that will save the day for conservation. The politicians will fight tooth and nail to save their sorry backsides and be able to drink coffee and eat donuts at OUR expense.
The way i look at it, in this present moment, is that we need a Juggernaut of support from individuals to combine to add weight and numbers to apply pressure to the govt immediately. Call it network marketing if you like, with branches all over the country like chapters in a book, who can at the right time come together and apply the pressure when needed.
I am talking about this tomorrow at a general meeting of our organisation and will be asking for support in making others aware of this situation. Its a start.
If anyone has some real grunt going in the right direction regarding this, and would like support, feel free to contact me.

 

[mummabear]

Do you not think that more people would care for our native animals and the natural environment if they were exposed to them as pets? The point is the general public don't know much about out native species so they don't have as much interest in their conservation. It's not all about saving the species buy having them in captivity. It is also about encouraging the general public to love and therefor want to save our native species, and their environment, by being exposed to these creatures through pet ownership.

 

[Waterrat]

Except for raising awareness!

And also research. Ecological research is more important for wildlife management strategies but if it wasn't for private breeders, we (and the scientists) would know little or nothing about species' reproductive biology and behaviour. Although we have draw a line between per owners and investigative breeders.

On another note, crocodiles in Australia are a huge success story. Once on the brink of extinction, listed on Appendix I of CITES, .... two decades later, they are our best protected species wild thriving wild populations and a thriving crocodile industry along the side of it.
Step outside the square and ask a question: "why can't we the same with snakes, lizards and turtles?" .... and, we are not talking about utilising these animals for their skins or meat, we want to produce them for the pet trade. I guess the answer is - it's the bureaucrats who would have to step outside the square.

 

[wokka]

Looking from the other side, What is the problem with having native animals in private collections even if they dont create awareness or educate and provide data?

 

[Waterrat]

Nothing at all but pet keeping and nothing else does nothing for conservation just like it does nothing for edvancement of this hobby. I guess your next question will be "what's wrong with that"? lol

 

[waruikazi]

How about solutions Gordo?
The problems are well known, and the CB hobby/industry is its own animal.
Satellite colonies are only as good as their genetic diversity, but what else is there.
If these types of colonies had no potential, then where does that leave the tassie Devil. Would people as passionate and knowledgeable as JW get involved in a lost cause?
It is private funding that will save the day for conservation. The politicians will fight tooth and nail to save their sorry backsides and be able to drink coffee and eat donuts at OUR expense.
The way i look at it, in this present moment, is that we need a Juggernaut of support from individuals to combine to add weight and numbers to apply pressure to the govt immediately. Call it network marketing if you like, with branches all over the country like chapters in a book, who can at the right time come together and apply the pressure when needed.
I am talking about this tomorrow at a general meeting of our organisation and will be asking for support in making others aware of this situation. Its a start.
If anyone has some real grunt going in the right direction regarding this, and would like support, feel free to contact me.

I don't have any big solutions, sorry. I do my part by living a life of minimal impact, hunting ferals, volunteering a relocation service in my community and i try to get involved with interesting projects going on in my area but i don't have any solutions to offer.

But i know that if we keep looking at the animals all we are doing is treating the symptoms, not the problem.

Like i said in most of my posts, i don't have a problem with any of the ideas being thrown around. It is pretty obvious that we need a new approach to conservation. But i think we need to be honest about what we want and what we will acheive with the measures that are being suggested in this thread.

I know Greg Miles, he will get this project going. It will take a while and it will likely be a species at a time but it will happen. Luckily, i think, he has no illusions about what he hopes to acheive.

The Tassie devil project is a great project. It has a plan and it is well set up. But the people keeping them aren't keeping them for the pet trade (as far as i'm aware), they are not average keepers and they are dealing with what is threatening the tassie devils.

I'll say it again, i'm not agaisnt having these animals in captivity and i am not agaisnt insurance populations. But we need to separate the idea of private collections and insurance populations, they are not the same thing. And we need to have an idea or atleast an intention of doing something about the threatening process, otherwise all our efforts are useless.

 

[Wally]

I wonder if conservation could, in part at least, be taken away from government departments and the bureaucracy that controls it and given to the private sector. It would of course require oversight by these government departments, but by doing this you can remove the fiefdom ideology that constrains state government agencies. I work closely with state and local government departments with my employment here in Vic and to say it can be enormously frustrating at times would be an understatement. But through well thought out design of policy, the company I work for has been able to persuade government departments, at times, into doing things differently. It doesn't always work, but some of the spending of public money on ridiculous programs has been negated in some instances.

 

[Waterrat]

There is no need for a hand over but there is urgent need for collaborative approach between wildlife dps and private sector. The bureaucrats need to realise that no one will put their money into conservation programs if there is not going to be any financial return. Unfortunately, as it stands, no commercial component is allowed in any wildlife involving projects (with the exception of crocodile farming and maybe another one or two enterprises). It is ridiculous attitude - would the bureaucrats work for nothing?

 

[Mr.James]

Bureaucrats..Aren't they a non-for profit organisation.. ;-)

Thank you for providing the link Michael, what a great & important discussion. Lets hope we can get this message to the government bodies in control & maybe just maybe they will pull there fingers out and start making some serious changes.

 

[cement]

Hey gordo, not having a dig, mate and you don;t need to justify yourself to me.
I don't know Greg miles, but he looks and seems to be tarred by the same brush as a bloke that I know. Head ranger of a huge National park in NZ, who flew me and some mates up into the back country for a week of hunting deer, into country that has never been logged and hardly ever walked by humankind. Passionate blokes that walk the walk, in fact i had trouble keeping up and I train regularly, and he was in his 60's! The sort of knowledge he has comes from years (a lifetime) of walking the mountains, and living in pristine mountain country.
Offer Greg support, and keep in touch there are so many people who would lend support but feel impotent. Almost everyone i meet on a callout is concerned for the native animal. They may still be scared of them and not know a lot about them but their hearts are in the right place (after all, they made the call!). This is a huge untapped resource for lobby power. And lets face it, thats the only thing that turns a govt! And I am all for making money from wildlife if that money is spent on the right objectives. Mainly, securing safe, vermin free habitat, or setting up satellite colonies until the habitat situation is sorted out, whatever, as long as its action in the right direction!!

 

[DanN]

Apart from creating a captive population to safe-guard against species extinction, what can private keepers do to conserve species and their habitats in situ?

Say I want to conserve green pythons. What is the pet trade going to do which will help in any way to conserve that species?
IMO breeding a species for reintroduction isn't enough. Can anybody come up with an extremely novel approach whereby we apply the principle of "sustainable use" to conserve green pythons?

I am genuinely asking...

 

[Waterrat]

Hi Dan, you always come up with a curly one. lol

First of all, we have to ask "does the species need any extra protection? In case of Aussie GTPs, the answer is no. If the wild population was threatened and a reserve collection required, then I would like to be able to take 5 pairs from the wild every 5 years. They would be mixed with my existing stock and the old breeders then phased out. That would ensure a sound genetic diversity and also healthy stock dispersed into the herp community.

I am actually quite surprised that John Weigel is not thinking that way. All those hundreds, if not thousands of captive bred RSP in collections are from the original snakes. I can't remember how many he brought back but it wasn't many. It's going to be an interesting test for inbreeding - time will tell if we start seeing progeny with congenital deformities or compromised reproductive fitness.

Back to GTPs - if you want to save the species across its distribution range, you would need to hire a small army and take out all the poachers on Biak and other hot spots ...... you know more about that than I do.

Private keepers can't do anything to conserve habitats or species in situ. They can effectively reduce the temptation of poaching by making the species readily available for a lower price that the cost of a field trip. That's about all.


Cheers
M

 

[waruikazi]

I completely agree with what you have said. There aren't that many people who i look upto more, in this context, than Greg. He's one of the few people that can talk the talk and walk the walk and he has my support 100%.

I'm saying what i say because if his ideas are going to work and be accepted by the beaurocrats we, the 'lobbiests,' need to keep it real in respect to what his private keeping idea will acheive. If we base our want to keep alot of these animals and introduce them to the pet trade (in the way our hobby stands now) on the idea that it is for conservation, we will be laughed out the door by the decision makers. If i give you a northern quoll, critically endangered according to John Woinarski, what good is that going to do for conservation?

There is an awful lot more to Greg's idea than just hobby keeping that we didn't see in that video. I agree with his ideas and what he wants to acheive. He's a pretty difficult bloke to disagree with, he managed to convince a PETA representative that captive keeping is a good idea lol, if he can do that you know his ideas are good. Lets just be real about what this tiny little part of his idea will acheive.

Hey gordo, not having a dig, mate and you don;t need to justify yourself to me.
I don't know Greg miles, but he looks and seems to be tarred by the same brush as a bloke that I know. Head ranger of a huge National park in NZ, who flew me and some mates up into the back country for a week of hunting deer, into country that has never been logged and hardly ever walked by humankind. Passionate blokes that walk the walk, in fact i had trouble keeping up and I train regularly, and he was in his 60's! The sort of knowledge he has comes from years (a lifetime) of walking the mountains, and living in pristine mountain country.
Offer Greg support, and keep in touch there are so many people who would lend support but feel impotent. Almost everyone i meet on a callout is concerned for the native animal. They may still be scared of them and not know a lot about them but their hearts are in the right place (after all, they made the call!). This is a huge untapped resource for lobby power. And lets face it, thats the only thing that turns a govt! And I am all for making money from wildlife if that money is spent on the right objectives. Mainly, securing safe, vermin free habitat, or setting up satellite colonies until the habitat situation is sorted out, whatever, as long as its action in the right direction!!

Apart from creating a captive population to safe-guard against species extinction, what can private keepers do to conserve species and their habitats in situ?

Say I want to conserve green pythons. What is the pet trade going to do which will help in any way to conserve that species?
IMO breeding a species for reintroduction isn't enough. Can anybody come up with an extremely novel approach whereby we apply the principle of "sustainable use" to conserve green pythons?

I am genuinely asking...

As keepers i don't think we can do an awful lot except for promoting awareness and best practice. But as herpers i think there is alot we can do. One of the biggest problems facing conservation is that no one has any really good idea of what is actually going on. If you go out as regularly as you feel like, look around and take notes on what is going on in the environment and do it over a long period of time the information you collect will become pretty valuable. I met a lady 2 years ago when i was teaching in Kalkarindji, she'd kept herping journals for 20 years! The ammount of people who wanted that information was astounding because it would show a pretty good long term picture of what was going on in the herp world of the areas she visited. It wouldn't be a perfect record but it's something that no one else had.

A pet idea i have is to setup a data base that amateur herpers, twitchers, botanists, mammal folk, fish folk etc can access and update with information they collect in the feild to help paint a picture of what is going on. Only i have no idea how to do.

 

[DanN]

I managed to delete my lengthy reply, sorry...

Good points, but preservation will last only so long. Species that are currently not under threat may be in the future. Human beings are only going to conserve something if they value it. The minds in the talk are busily trying to come up with sustainable use plans to conserve our wildlife.

Sustainable harvest, eco-tourism etc... unfortunetely conservation is really just economics..

Does this community have any bright ideas?

 

[Fuscus]

I can't remember how many he brought back but it wasn't many. It's going to be an interesting test for inbreeding - time will tell if we start seeing progeny with congenital deformities or compromised reproductive fitness.

Some snakes seem remarkably immune to inbreeding, many isolated populations of tigers live on very small islands. Of course culling needs to be done, this happens automatically in the wild but may not occur in captive populations

 

[colubridking]

WR, i dont agree with your comment "The bureaucrats need to realise that no one will put their money into conservation programs if there is not going to be any financial return"
i am not as much i would like to be and willing to be - only thing that is stopping me at the moment is space. However i know people who have given up with the bureaucrats and waiting for laws to change and have purchased legal, captive bred animals from SA, VIC or NT and are breeding them in NSW and releasing youngsters (or once old enough to be released how ever old that is) back into the wild by selectively breeding them and making sure genes are are not crossed etc. I guarantee there are other people doing this with other mammals. and i will to get into it when space is available and honestly i dont really give a **** if people tell me otherwise because i am more them capable of obtaining vulnerable or threatened animals, breeding them and releasing and i will happily do it out of my back pocket. The Bureaucrats waste to much and I, along with many others have given up and taken matters into their own hands.

CK

BTW thanks for the video it was very good!