blue carpet phase?

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roadkill5000

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on the weekend i was at a friends house and he told me that there is a blue phase or morph or something of a carpet.
has anyone ever heard of this before as i dont believe it.
 
Never heard of it, and I very much doubt it. There's blue phase tree snakes,but no blue carpets. :?
Then again, I wouldn't have believed that there's purple file snakes until I saw one. Pretty snake that.
 
I hate to disagree but a blue phase carpet snake is highly unlikely.
I'd say he was thinking about a bluephase tree snake which are not uncommon.
 
no he ment carpet because he said he was getting one so he could breed it with his carpets.
now that i think about im pretty sure he said it had something to do with a jungle carpet python.
anyone?
 
As far as I know, the "jaguar" morph is one that occurred in northern Europe somewhere, within the last 10 years or so. All the "jaguar" line are descendents of just one snake. As such, it would be unavailable there in Australia. I know that some of the line are in the US and UK, but as far as I know, none would/should be Australia.

Only reason I pointed it out, was to show that there are indeed carpet python color/pattern morphs. If it can occur "spontaneously" in Europe, it can occur anywhere. However, I have never heard of or read about a blue phase carpet, inside or outside of Australia.

I wouldn't go as far a Greebs, but I think it's highly unlikely. Never say never, ya' know. Who would've thought you could have a yellow carpet? However, I would be highly dubious of any day-glo orange morphs, or ones with gang signs on them. :D
 
In Wires we got a large number of blue tongues in all from the same area that had been spray painted gold...
They were called the Goldmembers.
 
OMG what kind of idiots would run around spray painting the resident lizard population? Some people...

(I do love the name you gave them though LOL) :lol:
 
blue carpets

hi everyone..
the thing with some of the off shoot morphs like the jaguars is that they are still with in the normal colour range just differant combinations of pattern and shade of colour..
as for blue carpets dont hold your breath..

as seen with gtp and selective breeding for colour etc...there are now very attractive blue forms...but that is still with in natural colour range as in certain island groups the blue colour can be found in the wild..

to manufacture a totally differant colour really is a pipe dream at this stage...you have more chance of producing a albino.
cheers paul.
 
Well If I cant have one for real I might have to hit the pipe before bed tonight and dream me one up, :p :wink:
Cause I still cant picture a blue carpet.

OZ
 
I know with birds, colour mutations occur as the birds 'lose' a colour gene. Eg. a green bird can 'lose' the blue gene, making it yellow or 'lose' the yellow gene making it blue. Eventually they end up with a white bird, ie. not an albino but a bird with no 'colour genes' left. I have never heard of this happening with pythons but I'm sure it will one day. The breeders 'line breed' to produce mutations ie breed mother with son, grandaughter with grandfather etc. done enough times, mutations occur and they just hope that they get a new colour. New colours in birds can be worth up to $20 000 each. I would imagine we will start to see this sort of thing start to come out of the US (no offence Americans, just that snake mutations in general are a lot more popular there and the gene pool may be smaller,) in the next 100 years or so.
 
I would agree Magpie. I suspect we will be seeing a lot of non-naturally occurring color/pattern morphs in more and more snakes.

Researchers are just now beginning to understand the mechanics of color and pattern in snakes. Even the mechanics of the pattern and color in ball pythons, arguably the most well studied of the pythons (at least as far as morphs are concerned), and certainly the one with the most morphs available, are far from being completely understood. We are however, now beginning to see "designer" snakes. That is, ones that never occur in nature (not that it isn't possible). It is one thing to understand that if you breed x to y you end up with z. It is something else all together to know the why and how of it.

http://www.vpi.com/4VPIInventory/VPIPriceList/BallPicPages/ballpythonpatterntext.htm

As far as being within the range of natural colors and patterns, I totally disagree with the notion that nature has limited a certain species to a specific "range" of anything. Bear in mind that somewhere back down through history, carpets and GTPs, to use the current examples, would have shared a common ancestor. Genetically speaking, they aren't all that different. Swap a few dozen genes here and there, and you have the same snake. To me, that's the inherent beauty of evolution. It is dynamic. The carpet pythons 5000 years from now might all be blue. :D

Now, I would agree that we are still a long way from manipulating this stuff manually. If say I wanted a blue carpet, I would likely be in for a very, very long wait. Truth be known, I don't believe for a second that there is a blue carpet out there to be had. It is extremely unlikely. However, with that said, I don't doubt for a second it is a possibility.

Seriously, to get a blue carpet, I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't have to "switch" more than a couple genes, if that. Problem is, that those particular genes are obviously quite stabilized within the population. This is how you end up with, a so called "natural range". But every once in a blue moon (pun intended), you do have a mutation that could be exploited to produce a new "natural range". This is how you end up with local variation from on place to another in the first place. It doesn't make much sense to then point out the odd-balls as defining the outer limits of a "natural range". What stops those from mutating?

Nature is dynamic. Things will change. Mutations will occur. Evolution never sleeps.
 
blue carpets..

hi almaron..
i have read your post a number of times now. (am feeling rather drained today ) and cant get the grip of what you are trying to say. But will make a couple of comments on what i think i have got my head around :)

nature has and will continue to determine natural range in many things weather it be from climate control, eco system type or even required patterning for them to be able to hide with in there enviroment.( camouflage) which we all know that many,many species rely on for there survival.
with evolution hell yes this is one of lifes miricals but we also know just how long this takes but if we are going to talk 5000 years in the future i would be more willing to bet that there wont be anything left at all as the current rate that we as people are killing off the world its not going to last 5000 years. Now if your talking along the chance of getting a throw back from the evolutionary stage when carpet and chondros may have been related. let me put this question to you. Out of the rate that we as humans have and are populating the earth, just how many apes have people produced as offspring from there normal mating process. And yes i know its still not proven that we have decended from apes but we also dont know if carpet have come from chondros or vise versa. And yes i also know that what i have just mentioned is pretty rediculous but it pretty well matches the 5000 year time period you have used.

mutations have mostly come from the crossing of species in reptiles. The likly choice to produce a blue carpet would be crossing a blue chondro with a carpet and then working with that offspring for a very long time. But then are they really a carpet or a chondro just what would you call a mutation from that..
what it would be called in this contry is criminal , as this practice is not supported at all.

the thing about line breeding is that once you have started all you will do is intensify what you started with.. so you effectivly double up on things your chasing like colour and pattern. at the same time if the is a fault in the genetics of the foundation animals you wiull aso make that more prevalant, that is why out x animals are used to try and correct things as they expose them selves
to produce a new colour from a line bred family would indeed be harder to produce than a albino. and of course there is the other side of the coin , where line bred animals have a habit of producing some very nasty offspring by haveing to much of the same blood in the mix.
anyway thats enough prattle for now..
cheers paul.
 
Just as a query, I thought that the definition of species determined that cross breeding between two different species lead to sterile offspring therefore that sort of breeding could propagate (eg horse and donkey lead to a sterile mule). Whereas integrades are breeding between sub-species of the same species (eg costals and diamonds which are M spilota with a bit added on or dingos and domestic dogs).

Spontaneous mutations are the things that would cause colour changes (eg albino) and if you interbreed albino genes then the percentage of albinos increases due to medelian genetics.

Man I gotta take my valium that was way toooo cerebral. :shock: :shock:

Cheers Hawkeye
 
Just a tip, humans and apes, share a common ancestor waaaay back, not one decendant from the other... :)
 
blue carpet

hawkeye
this discussion is a bit of imagination at work and we were kind of working on the chance that chondros and carpet came from the same genetic origin which in a way would make them subspecies
that fact that they are all morelia also could come into play .
and yes you are right cross breeding of some species can and will produce mules thats a whole other subject though.
 
Hmm. I reread my post, and didn't think it was all that confusing. :? Mainly what I'm getting at is that sometimes spontaneous mutations do occur. I wasn't really talking about a "throw back". My main point was closer to the end of my post, which I know can be lost due to fatigue, since I can get carried away sometimes. Anyway, what I'm saying is that the gene, or genes that could make an otherwise normal carpet have blue coloration, could quite easily pop up due to mutation at anytime. My guess would be that at some point, it may very well have happened in the wild. Evolution being the beast that it is, weeded this hypothetical blue snake out. Chances are, he didn't survive for very long. He was too easy to spot by predators or something. Died before he could pass on his blue genes. Poof. Gone.

These little "experiments" of nature are what drives evolution. I wouldn't be so quick to scoff at my 5000 year reference, even though it was simply an arbitrary number I threw out there. It was sort of meant to be ridiculous. But when you talk about evolutionary changes, there are really two aspects of it. You can say it took so many millions of years to evolve from primitive primates to man. That is a pretty complex change, with many overlapping species and subspecies, involving many, many mutations. That obviously takes a long time. But there is the other way of looking at it, which is one single mutation at a time. A single mutation can indeed stabilize within a local population quite quickly.

Also, when you talk about a human mutating into an ape, you are talking about something else completely. Take our closest primate relative, the chimp. They share somewhere in the neighborhood of 98.5% of our DNA. To mutate 1.5% of your genetic makeup in a single generation is absurd. But, if you take it one gene at a time, you see it all the time. One guy has slightly longer toes than average. Another guy is really hairy. Yet another is really short. And of course we all know that there are plenty of people out there with sub-standard intelligence. :D

What I'm getting at is that it is one thing to say that there aren't any known blue carpets, but to rule it out is somewhat narrow minded. Nobody as of yet has completely mapped any reptile genome, much less the a carpet python specifically.

As far as intergrades, I personally find this practice to be a very bad thing, and would fully support a ban on it. Line breeding is something else altogether. If done correctly, it can be beneficial to your stock. It is generally thought of as a way to bring out a specific trait, but it can just as effectively be used to get rid of undesirable traits as well.
 
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