Class 1 Dwarf Adder feeding

[cris]

Okay, I concede, I was wrong it seems. For those interested, the relevant information can be found on page 80 of the Nature Conservation (Wildlife Management) Regulation 2006.

I dont see anything relevant on page 80, what does it say about not keeping Elapids or venomous snakes on a recreational licence?

 

[slacker]

I dont see anything relevant on page 80, what does it say?

Make sure you're looking at the 'real page 80' rather than what Adobe Acrobat PDF reader thinks is page 80. It says, down the bottom (in reference to recreational licenses):

(2) Also, the holder of a recreational wildlife licence for a live
protected animal other than a restricted animal, or a relevant
person for the holder, may also keep and use, at the licensed
premises for the licence—

(a) if the licence is a recreational wildlife licence for birds—1 or 2 birds that are a restricted animal; or
​

(b) if the licence is a recreational wildlife licence for reptiles and amphibians—1 or 2 reptiles that are a restricted animal, other than reptiles of the family Elapidae, Hydrophiidae or Laticaudidae.
​

 

[cris]

Make sure you're looking at the 'real page 80' rather than what Adobe Acrobat PDF reader thinks is page 80. It says, down the bottom (in reference to recreational licenses):

(2) Also, the holder of a recreational wildlife licence for a live
protected animal other than a restricted animal, or a relevant
person for the holder, may also keep and use, at the licensed
premises for the licence—

(a) if the licence is a recreational wildlife licence for birds—1 or 2 birds that are a restricted animal; or
​

(b) if the licence is a recreational wildlife licence for reptiles and amphibians—1 or 2 reptiles that are a restricted animal, other than reptiles of the family Elapidae, Hydrophiidae or Laticaudidae.
​

My understanding is that this means that restricted Elapids cant be kept on a recreational licence, but you could keep up to 2 restricted reptiles such as womas. It does not say that Elapids cant be kept on a recreational licence. The relevant legislation would be related to what is and isnt a restricted reptile, which you would think would be consistant with the rules they send you...

 

[butters]

I agree Chris (and have had it verified by Ecoaccess) read it again Slacker. That clause only applies to restricted animals from those families not to animals that aren't on the restricted list.

I have been through the same process and when I finally was put onto someone who could read the legislation(5th person) they agreed that it is possible to hold any elapid not specifically stated in the legislation on a recreational permit. I pointed out all of the sections that have been highlighted in this thread to them. In fact their exact words were "You are quite welcome to hold one of those species on your permit as long as they don't apper on the restricted list".

They don't encourage it and they don't promote the fact.

You need to speak to the right people in EPA.



When dealing with EPA here in Queensland you really need to speak to the people who actually are familiar with the legislation not the poor souls answering the phones. One of them tried to tell me that a brown tree snake is a type of elapid and when I pointed out their error said "oh well a colubrid is a type of elapid anyway"

Cheers Andrew

 

[slacker]

My understanding is that this means that restricted Elapids cant be kept on a recreational licence, but you could keep up to 2 restricted reptiles such as womas. It does not say that Elapids cant be kept on a recreational licence. The relevant legislation would be related to what is and isnt a restricted reptile, which you would think would be consistant with the rules they send you...

I had to read your post about five times before it made sense. It read like a contradiction. But yes, now that I see what you're getting at, it is ambiguous. One could argue that that point only applies to restricted elapids but one could also infer that it is a blanket restriction on all elapids.

After your post, and re-reading that, I'm back to where I begin. I think it is legal, with the exception of the explicitly stated exceptions. Even if that's not what they meant, I'm sure it could be argued easily in court.

Oh and to rbb.... I was wrong before when I said you could keep dunmalli regardless. They would be restricted elapids due to their conservation status, if I am not mistaken.

PS: Sorry again Jason. I think all of these posts should be split off into a new thread if one of the mods can be bothered.

PPS: Yes, they're terrible Andrew. One them tried to tell me a rough-scaled python is venomous.

-Lee

 

[redbellybite]

GUYS GUYS GUYS ....DO YOURSELF A FAVOUR ring the number and ask again on Monday ,if you can keep lesser vens on a rec permit ....if I had a set to bet they'd be on the table right now ,with yours and on Monday afternoon I would end up with two extra sets ...like I said Jonno loves to prove me wrong and if he can he does ..but he knows I am right about QLD's vens regulations ,,,regardless of how you want to interpret it ,you will find the answer will be a big fat NO to vens on a rec permit...and Jason technically this is still about those vens

 

[Kersten]

Gorgeous DeVis', they look like they're in great condition. Good luck with the mating.

 

[Jonno from ERD]

G'day guys,

It pays to get any ruling from the EPA in writing...generally they are a lot less enthusiastic to deliver a personal interpretation of some ambiguous legislation if there is the chance of some sort of accountability involved. If you do get it in writing, then by all means go for gold!

 

[butters]

There is really nothing ambiguous about that clause in the act. It specifically refers to restricted reptiles.

If you have no preconceived ideas that all elapids are automatically not allowed on a recreational permit then there is no other way to read it. If you already think that elapids aren't allowed then you could read it incorrectly...but read it again and look at the wording.

The legislation also clearly states which species are restricted. A Mud Adder is not on the list.

Redbellybite- I don't need to call them again to make sure. I have called them numerous times and after reviewing the act with them the answer has always been the same. You can keep non restricted reptiles on a recreational permit. That includes any elapids not specifically stated in the act.

Why don't you call them tomorrow? But rather than just accepting what they say straight up..which will invariably be no ( they have the same preconcieved ideas that you do)... then ask them to show you exactly where in the act it says you can't keep a Devis snake for example. Have a copy of the act in front of you and go through all the relevant points with them. Also have the species name of the animal you want to ask about ..in this case Denisonia devisi so you can compare it to the list with them.

There is nowhere in the act that prohibits you from keeping that species on a rec permit.

Actually Jonno you probably should do the exercise as well using the information and approach given above and see what answer you get. After all you are in the business of educating people in all things reptilian and it would be nice to make sure you have the right information. Do not just take no for an answer though until they can show you exactly where it states in the legislation you can't keep a mud adder specifically. Don't call it a mud adder though...use the common name of Devis Banded Snake and the species name only. They could get confused and think it was a real adder which is definitely not allowed.

That is not to say that just anyone should keep any of the non restricted small elapids. They can be alot of work in feeding and they shouldn't be treated any less seriously than a dangerous elapid. They are still venomous and a bite should be taken seriously.

Sorry Jason for going so far off track but ...in a way.. this is still about mud adders. Its just branched out into the legality of keeping them here in Queensland on a Rec permit. I also don't like people blindly accepting information just because such and such said so.

I don't personally keep them but a friend does and you are right in saying they can be fast when they want to be. One minute they appear just like a real adder sitting like a lump...next second they are wriggling uncontrollably across the floor and your heart is in your mouth as they head towards a place you know will be hard to retrieve them from.

If I could find someone that breeds them, was willing to part with them and was willing to ship to Brisbane I would have some in a flash.

Do the exercise guys in the way I have stated above and see what the result is. Remember they will say no initially but review the act with them and see what they say.

I have already done it numerous times.

Cheers Andrew

 

[redbellybite]

so then answer me this Butters if you say this is so ...as I quoted about the genus SUTA..it is not mentioned on the restricted reptile list ...but the curl snake or (Suta suta) IS A HIGH VENOMOUS snake ,unlike the little spotted snake (suta punctata)..The Demansia genus isnt on the list ,so you saying that it is quite ok for a newbie to keep a greater black whip or even the lesser black whip? ..the furina isnt on the list ,so a dunmalls would be ok to have when your a newbie huh? as I said before if you can show us that you have non restricted vens on a rec permit in QLD show us ,I am sure we all would love to dispute this with the EPA ..anyone in QLD that has a rec permit with any type of elapid on it please show us ...

 

[butters]

I have't said this is so. The act clearly states what is and what isn't allowed. Has nothing to do with what I have said or what I think is right.

Nowhere did I state that it is OK for a newbie to have any of those species. Just like your reading of the act can you tell me exactly where I have said this? It would be stupid for a newbie to get any of those species but that doesn't mean it is not allowed under the legislation. There are plenty of people with rec licenses who are not newbies too.

I am not arguing whether or not a newbie should have one but whether or not the act allows for it. You have added that in all by yourself.

I know a lot of people who have a specialist license and keep dangerous vens but that does not mean that those particular people should be keeping vens either. In fact a lot of them shouldn't be allowed to IMO.

This isn't about who does or doesn't have vens on a rec permit but whether the legislation allows for it. Just because no one claims to have them on a rec permit doesn't mean it isn't allowed.

What I have or don't have is nobody but EPA's business and mine. Even if I had non restricted elapids on a rec permit would you believe me if I said so.........probably not.

Make the call in the manner I have suggested . Be prepared to meet resistance but go through the act with them and see what they say. Ask them to show you where in the act it says you can't. I already know the answer but you seem to refuse to believe and I am not sure why.

Cheers Andrew

 

[redbellybite]

I have't said this is so. The act clearly states what is and what isn't allowed. Has nothing to do with what I have said or what I think is right.

Nowhere did I state that it is OK for a newbie to have any of those species. Just like your reading of the act can you tell me exactly where I have said this? It would be stupid for a newbie to get any of those species but that doesn't mean it is not allowed under the legislation. There are plenty of people with rec licenses who are not newbies too.

I am not arguing whether or not a newbie should have one but whether or not the act allows for it. You have added that in all by yourself.

I know a lot of people who have a specialist license and keep dangerous vens but that does not mean that those particular people should be keeping vens either. In fact a lot of them shouldn't be allowed to IMO.

This isn't about who does or doesn't have vens on a rec permit but whether the legislation allows for it. Just because no one claims to have them on a rec permit doesn't mean it isn't allowed.

What I have or don't have is nobody but EPA's business and mine. Even if I had non restricted elapids on a rec permit would you believe me if I said so.........probably not.

Make the call in the manner I have suggested . Be prepared to meet resistance but go through the act with them and see what they say. Ask them to show you where in the act it says you can't. I already know the answer but you seem to refuse to believe and I am not sure why.

Cheers Andrew

I see what it says Andrew ..and I know how it is written ,but as I did specify on some species that were not mentioned on the list ,she actually put me on hold as she wasnt sure herself ,but when she came back to the phone ,she told me that all elapids are on that restriction ,seems like they need to either refresh their ideas of what type of vens or do a new legislation that says blanket ban on all vens ..I agree with you its not clear in writting ,but I only asked as late as last week and was told no ...

 

[butters]

And as you accepted no and were happy with that......the answer remained no even though that is not what is written in the legislation. They have preconceived ideas just like you until you actually read the act.

At the end of the day EPA is there to enforce the act not preconceived ideas that may not be correct.

Call and ask to be shown exactly where it says you can't. Don't ask if you can keep elapids on a rec permit..ask if you can keep a yellow faced whip...and ask them to specifically show you where it says you can't. The fact that it is an elapid is irrelevant to the act. What is relevant is whether or not it appears on the restricted or threatened list.

Then when they can't find anywhere ask does that mean I can under the act.

I would love to see them show you an actual passage in the act that says you can't.

Work out what it costs for a rec permit for 5 years...work out what it costs for a specialist permit for 5 years and you will see why they would rather you get the specialist permit even though it is not specifically required.

Cheers Andrew

 

[butters]

At the end of the day an adult lace monitor is a far bigger threat than a marsh snake to most people and you can keep that on a rec permit without anyone batting an eye.

Cheers Andrew