Cross breeding laws

Discussion in 'General Reptile Discussion' started by Letzee, Nov 26, 2017.

  1. Letzee

    Letzee New Member

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    Hi just wondering if people know the laws on cross breeding carpet pythons is SA. A friend bred what she thought was two murray darlings but i believe the male is a coastal. Advice/opinions
     
  2. Houdini-The-Bluey

    Houdini-The-Bluey Not so new Member

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    Im not sure specifically with SA but from what i know in VIC, it is illegal to knowingly cross breed reptiles such as eastern blue tongue lizards with western blue tongues, cant tell specifics on snakes but im pretty sure the same goes for them.
    But key word is knowingly, as your friend was under the impression that they were not different snakes, then they probably wont get in trouble.
    Once again, dont know too much about SA law but im sure someone else will be able to give you a better answer.
     
  3. Imported_tuatara

    Imported_tuatara Well-Known Member

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    i'm pretty sure all over aus it's strictly illegal to do it, tho such as here in vic it's a bit looser.
     
  4. Foozil

    Foozil Well-Known Member

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    Just curious, but if it is illegal what happens to the eggs/hatchlings?
     
  5. SpottedPythons

    SpottedPythons Well-Known Member

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    Not illegal in NSW for certain crosses - in fact, they are on the species list. But you are in SA, so that's irrevelant. The owner might get fined and the eggs/hatchlings will probably not be allowed to breed.
     
  6. Letzee

    Letzee New Member

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    Thanks guys might just call fauna permits to be sure at some point
     
  7. Pauls_Pythons

    Pauls_Pythons Power Seller Power Seller

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    It can a bit of a grey area and laws are different from state to state. (And it also depends on how well the laws are policed more than the presence of the laws themselves. I believe cross breeding is outlawed in QLD but is undertaken on a regular basis so one can only assume the law is not well policed over there)
    I can tell you in SA the laws are the clearest I have seen them and are enforced. There is NO cross breeding of species allowed. I do remember a couple of incidents where clutches were removed from the breeder and euthanised but I can;t for the life of me remember what the species involved was.... (One case involved a Bredlii that I can remember)

    I know a man who might remember better than I @pinefamily
     
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  8. pinefamily

    pinefamily Subscriber Subscriber

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    Thanks, Pauls_Pythons.
    The laws here in SA do say no cross breeding, however that is according to the species code list provided by DEWNR. So, looking at that, virtually all Morelia pythons are covered under the one "species", so it wouldn't "wrong" in the eyes of the law. Bredli and south western pythons are two that I know are separately listed, off the top of my head. These two then would be illegal to cross with anything else, according to DEWNR.
     
  9. saximus

    saximus Almost Legendary

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    I think Larks would have been in trouble a long time ago if all M. spilota were considered separate species.
     
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  10. Letzee

    Letzee New Member

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    So after a direct phone call to fauna permits unit, a woman has said to me that cross breeding of the same species code is legal. Specifically saying a coastal and an MD is a legal cross breed......although she also said she disaproves of it.
     
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  11. Yellowtail

    Yellowtail Subscriber Subscriber

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    I may be a dinosaur but I just don't see the point in cross breeding even within the M. spilota sub species. It seems that some breeders do it just to see what they will get and produce a lot of worthless bastard animals.
    There is so much more potential line breeding selected animals within a sub species including albinos, axanthics, stripes and unusual colour variations and these are worth more on the market. You can line breed to produce Jag like animals that are pure and without the Jag problems. It's got to the point when I will not buy an animal if I can't confirm it's pedigree so I do not risk contaminating my bloodlines.
     
  12. Pauls_Pythons

    Pauls_Pythons Power Seller Power Seller

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    +1 YT.
    No place in my collection for 'mixed' carpets as they now market them.
     
  13. pinefamily

    pinefamily Subscriber Subscriber

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    You only have to look overseas to see how it can end up. It seems almost impossible to find a pure bred carpet.
     
  14. Wally

    Wally Subscriber Subscriber Power Seller

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    The gate was opened and all that was left was a dust trail pre 2010.
     
  15. Nero Egernia

    Nero Egernia Subscriber Subscriber

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    Worthless bastard animals?

    These hybrids may not have the desired pedigree that so many purists covet, nor the pretty colours or patterns that a group of people have deemed pleasing to the eye, but they're still living creatures and, believe it or not, some people still love them. It's not the snake's fault that some human decided it would be cool to hybridize whatever species or subspecies.

    I'm sure everyone will be grabbing their torches and pitchforks in regards to what I'm saying, but I really don't see why people get their knickers in a knot over hybrids, particularly when it comes to carpet pythons. Were we not just having a discussion that carpet pythons are all one and the same? I don't particularly believe it myself, especially when it comes to imbricata and bredli, but that's my opinion. I'm more of a lizard person anyway.

    Would I ever keep hybrids? Certainly not. It's against our licence conditions in WA, and I doubt it would effect the hobby here for years to come, and even if it were allowed I still wouldn't keep them. They're not something that I personally like. I myself prefer animals with a known ancestry and looking as close to their wild counterparts as possible. I would not even breed the same species of two different known localities together. And I'm sure many members here are aware of my soft spot towards melanistic animals. Interestingly, it appears that many people believe the wild types to be ugly and boring. Even the so-called purists, whose self-appointed jobs appear to be preserving a snake's wild origins. Now why would that be? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, after all. People hybridize snakes to create a "pretty" snake. Are purists really that different when they line breed for brighter, cleaner, reduced patterned animals, albinos, hyper/hypomelanism, striped, spotted, pattern-less, or whatever else people are line breeding for. Double standards much?

    For the record, I don't particularly like the look of albinos, nor jags, or jag-like animals. But of course, that's my opinion. I admit that I'm fond of melanistic and axanthic animals. Does that make one better than the other? Of course not. It's only personal tastes. And that's what it all comes down to at the end of the day.
     
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  16. pinefamily

    pinefamily Subscriber Subscriber

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    I'm also a purist, and don't like the jags, and "crosses" either. I do think you might have argued against yourself though, Oshkii. Carpet pythons are the same (imbricate, bredli, and GTP's aside), and you say you're ok with breeding them; then you say you don't like to breed different locales. If the carpets are basically the same, then what we call jungles, coastals, etc. are just different locales surely?
    Not having a go, because I'm on the same page. To me, there is nothing better than seeing pythons as they would be in the wild. Although I do still appreciate good line breeding too, especially when it incorporates better dispositions as well.
     
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  17. Nero Egernia

    Nero Egernia Subscriber Subscriber

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    That's my point, pinefamily. By definition I suppose I would be called a purist. That would be correct when it comes to my lizard collection. The majority of them are wild caught and with some I know exactly where they come from. Like what rock or tree they came from. My snakes? Their origins are all unknown. While I have my suspicions that one's wild caught I have no idea where the others come from. Some I know who the parents were, others, they're a complete mystery. At least I could say that they're all imbricata if I'm to base that they lack the posterior suture of the nasal scale, and the fact that hybridization is not permitted in WA.

    When it comes to the riddle that is carpet python I have no idea. I've only seen a few wild south-west carpet pythons here and there. My opinions are largely based from what I've read.

    At the end of the day, I keep what I like. I don't froth at the mouth when I find someone else keeping or breeding something that I dislike or disagree with. It's their business. They have different tastes to me and that's all there is.
     
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  18. Pauls_Pythons

    Pauls_Pythons Power Seller Power Seller

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    This is an extension of a statement that was made in a thread a while back Oshkii and I think it refers to the uncontrolled breeding of carpets by inexperienced people in the belief that they are all going to make their fortune from breeding snakes with this 'new and unique pairing'.

    Everything that man is involved with turns to cr@p eventually.
    (Maybe I should re-phrase that as 'humans')
     
  19. Scutellatus

    Scutellatus Well-Known Member

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    I think the hardest part is naming the new morphs (mongrels). Do you pick 'Sunglow Pepper Spotted' or 'Tangerine Sunshine Moonglow'. Hahaha.
     
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  20. Yellowtail

    Yellowtail Subscriber Subscriber

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    Oshkii, we seem to have had this conversation before and maybe I could have worded my post a little differently, I do not mean that the poor animals are worthless and I love all animals, I was making the point that the results of mixed breeding are mostly of little commercial value and is against the expectations of a lot of the breeders to make money by producing the next cool designer reptile. Line breeding to enhance natural mutations of colour etc is different and the cross breed fans are generally not prepared to put in the time breeding multi-generational lines. Albinos are a matter of taste and I admit initially I did not like them but I became entranced by the subtle colours that are revealed in albino Darwins when there are no dominant dark pigments and I have been obsessed with developing these by selective breeding. I have no interest in albino olives as they do not have these colours.
     
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