Cross breeding laws

Discussion in 'General Reptile Discussion' started by Letzee, Nov 26, 2017.

  1. GBWhite

    GBWhite Well-Known Member

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    Personally, and I'm not having a go at anyone here, but I don't see any difference between breeding the morelia spilota group from different areas to line breeding animals. Isn't the intention of both to produce an animal that is aesthetically pleasing to the eye as a commercial product? It seems to me that the principal reason for line breeding is to produce an animal that has greater sales value and as such easy to dispose of. For example, you don't see many (if at all any) breeders of "pure" lines putting "Diamonds" on the market that display a noticeable lack of yellow pigment nor pale forms of "Bredli" or dull coloured "Jungles" despite the fact that these colour variations are quite common in the wild. It's still selective breeding either way. Line breeding and selective breeding are not confined to pythons either, it's common practice right across the board, from dragons, monitors, skinks, turtles to vens. From what I see, not many of the albino carpets available these days look like the original one collected in Darwin.

    From how it looks to me, it's only people that are really into herps that seek out "pure" forms and even then they prefer an animal which is aesthetically pleasing to one that lacks visual appearance. The average Joe doesn't seem to mind what they look like because they just want to own a snake.

    I'm pretty confident that other than Bredli & Imbricata I could actively seek out specific morphological variations of "Coastals" from the mid to far north coast of NSW and over a couple of generations produce snakes with the colouring and patterning consistent with those from way outside the area. In fact, when "Jungles" started to appear on the scene in the 1990's, I held a scientific license to collect any species of reptile in NSW. So, just to prove a point that I believed the eastern and northern spilota group were all the same snake, I deliberately line bred selected wild caught "coastals' from my immediate area and in 3 seasons (as I hypothesised but within a shorter period than I expected) produced a clutch where over half displayed markings and colours identical to the black and yellow banded "jungles" found in far north Qld which is a couple of thousand kilometres north of my place. I ended up giving them to a friend who went on to produce more and passed them on to one of his friends who ended up selling them as "jungle" pythons.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
  2. Yellowtail

    Yellowtail Subscriber Subscriber

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    I know we've had this discussion before but my Julatten jungles are only 1.2M long while coastals from the same area can be 4M and you can breed as many pairs of coastals as you like, you won't produce 1.2M black and white jungles. Sure they share the same genetics but unknown environmental factors over millions of years have produced distinctly different animals.
    I also mentioned Morelia oenpelliensis and how does it fit the one carpet model, it's range is adjacent to Darwin carpets.
    I just think it's not a good idea to cross say Julatten jungles and MD carpets when you can breed beautiful animals from their distinct group and the market agrees, I get $500 for my Julattens while I've seen crosses advertised for $50. It's like crossing German Shepherds with Dalmatians to get a spotted shepherd and they are also genetically identical.
     
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  3. GBWhite

    GBWhite Well-Known Member

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    In the wild "jungles" are known to reach an average length of 2.2 metres (similar to the average length of coastals of the same region) with females reaching 2.6 metres which again is consistent with coastals of the same area. Despite being capable of reaching 4 metres, carpets of that size aren't that common in the wild. Considering snakes do not stop growing and simply get bigger with age I find it hard to imagine that yours only reach a total body length of 1.2meters. If this was a recognised distinguishing and unique feature it would be included within a description of the species and despite how much I've searched i can't find anything relating to the fact. I'm not saying that they don't but I just find it hard to imagine that they get to that length and then stop growing.

    Oenpelli Pythons don't "fit the one carpet model" as you put it. They are of the Morelia genus but are considered a separate species to spilota primarily due to the unique characteristic of enlarged symmetrically shaped fragmented parietal head shields compared to the small fragmented head shields consistent with the spilota group. Same as Morelia amethistina, viridis & carinata having unique characteristics (eg; amethistina - largehead shields, viridis - the menial groove under the chin is boarded by small granular scales, carinata - rogus dorsal scales) that distinguish them from other snakes of the same genus. Whereas, as far as I'm aware other than colouring and patterns (that differ even within specific habitat & micro habitat) there is nothing unique relating to each of the spilota group to classify them as a separate species.
     
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  4. Scutellatus

    Scutellatus Well-Known Member

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    I've got the simple solution. George sends me a couple of hatchies and so does Yellowtail. I will be the unbiased non-partial judge, grow them to size and report back.

    Sorry couldn't help myself, I'll go back to my corner now.
     
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  5. Yellowtail

    Yellowtail Subscriber Subscriber

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    My julattens are from a line originating with wild caught snakes in the Julatten area that were line bred by Tremain Anderson, he used to be on APS but not recently. I have been breeding them for 3 generations, 4th next season and the largest one I have is a 13 yr old female at 1.4M and believe me as a breeder she is fed well. They are kept in large cages, develop the head size of a 2M carpet and eat the same size rats as my largest Darwins. Their eggs are larger than my Darwins and the hatchlings also. I have not kept or bred many other jungles but I understand their are distinct variations in size too with a larger type (as bred by Southern Cross) and others of similar size to my Julattens. I have observed that poor quality Julattens which loose their black and white contrast as they age and develop some brown grow larger possibly due to mixed heritage. Maybe there is a "dwarf" morph here that is black and white and has been line bred by Tremain and myself. The black and white imbricatas in WA seem to be the same size as other colour variations.
     
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  6. pinefamily

    pinefamily Subscriber Subscriber

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    And there are Cape York jungles that grow larger as well.
    Our Gammon Ranges pythons, which aren't officially recognised as a "subspecies", only grow to about 1.5 metres. The Dajarra python is another smaller python.
     
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  7. Nero Egernia

    Nero Egernia Subscriber Subscriber

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    I agree with George on this one. Line breeding. Hybridizing. The paths may be different, but the end goal is the same. To create a pretty snake that often doesn't resemble its wild counterparts.

    Here's a theoretical situation. What if I managed to breed my carpet pythons? It would be my first clutch, therefore I would be inexperienced. My snakes come from unknown origins. I have no proof where they come from, nor what locality they are. Perhaps they may not even be "pure" imbricata. Would they be mongrels or worthless bastard animals? I may be reading this the wrong way but it seems that most established breeders are generally against new keepers coming on to the breeding scene. Why are only a few select people allowed to breed to their heart's content and not others? If the new comers do produce animals with little to no value it's highly likely they'll learn the hard way - that the costs will far outweigh the income. They'll either stop breeding, or will become wise to the market. Or perhaps they'll breed regardless, because they're in it for the love of the animals and not for the money.
     
  8. Yellowtail

    Yellowtail Subscriber Subscriber

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    Oshkii, I was referring to serious breeders deliberately crossing different sub-species just to see if they can fluke some outstanding new morph without regard to the fate of any unwanted offspring. The same attitude with breeding Jags produces lots of animals with serious neuro that if they are lucky end up in the freezer. I have some Imbricata so should I mate them with my Julattens to produce better black and white? Personally I think some of the regional variations in Imbricata are wonderful and are better left that way.
     
  9. Nero Egernia

    Nero Egernia Subscriber Subscriber

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    What you breed is your decision, Yellowtail. People will generally do what they want, regardless of other's opinions.

    I didn't think serious breeders would deliberately hybridize snakes if there was a possibility of the offspring not selling. I don't really follow the happenings of Eastern states python breeders to be honest. Not much point when you live in WA. I'll admit I've seen some mixed carpets that I would consider nice, and then there's some that I personally find to be very ugly. Even if I could keep mixed carpets I wouldn't. They're not something I'm interested in. Although from what I can tell, they appear to be fairly popular.

    Does breeding different subspecies together result with health issues?
     
  10. Flaviemys purvisi

    Flaviemys purvisi Very Well-Known Member

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    Speaking from a turtle background, no... It just ruins the genetic integrity of the individual species' involved.

    Anything and everything in the Emydura complex can be crossbred... such as Brisbane river turtles, Clarence river turtles, Macleay river turtles, Hunter river turtles, Murray river turtles, Krefft's river turtles, Jardine river turtles, Cooper creek turtles, Fraser Island short-necks, Sydney Basin turtles, North-western red-faced turtle, Worrell's turtle, Northern yellow-faced turtle AND the Victoria River turtle... ALL of these species can successfully breed together and produce hybrid, fertile mongrel offspring which have no genetic integrity whatsoever. Obviously many of these species are separated geographically by hundreds or thousands of kilometres but thanks to the introduction of many turtles into systems far outside their natural range (especially Murrays, due to unwanted pet dumping) and there are people that keep many Emydura from different systems in captivity together and breed baby mongrel turtles for the pet trade... The most common crosses in the pet trade are Murrays X Krefft's - Murrays X Brisbane river - Murrays X Macleays (all are completely worthless and the clutches should be frozen and not allowed to hatch.)

    I also know of "Tainted Painted's" in NSW that are nothing more than Jardine River X Krefft's - Jardine river X Northern red-faced - Jardine river X Worrell's which come out a washed out orange colour or even yellow instead of the brilliant vibrant red that pure Painted's are supposed to be.. Unfortunately this dilution of genetics can never be reversed.

    The Sydney basin short-neck is basically a man-made species... there were no short-necked Emydura originally native to the Sydney area. It's just a "bitza species" that has a bit of everything in it thanks to imported Emydura from other parts of NSW and interstate that were all dumped together in the Sydney Basin area back in the 50's and 60's.

    Basically, as a serious turtle enthusiast, you wouldn't buy anything in the Emydura complex from a pet store anywhere... You would have to find a reputable breeder and in this industry, they are few and far between.
    I had a breeding pair of pure Macleay River turtles, Australia's smallest Emydura on the east coast but have recently moved on from Emydura all together and am now focusing on Australia's critically endangered Manning River turtle - Flaviemys purvisi.

    I am a purist, I don't know or understand why anyone would intentionally crossbreed any reptile, snake or turtle, etc... that's just my opinion... people say with snakes, it can produce awesome colouration/patterns etc... OK I get that... doesn't have the same outcome with turtles, it has the opposite effect...
     
  11. MANNING

    MANNING MANNING

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    Thats a turtle there should be more of.:p
    You got the stamp of approval there bud✔
     
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  12. Flaviemys purvisi

    Flaviemys purvisi Very Well-Known Member

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    Haha Yeah, they really are something special and arguably Australia's most attractive turtle.
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    My boy doing his bit to save his species. 20160529_071302.jpg 20160529_071254.jpg 20160529_093407.jpg
     
  13. GBWhite

    GBWhite Well-Known Member

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    Hi Yellowtail,

    Just had an interesting discussion with a mate who's down here from Qld who has a long background in herps and is the owner of a fauna spotting company who and spends a lot of time herping around the Mossman/Julatten area of Qld and west/sth west of there right down to the SA border. He was telling me that he has come across plenty of wild, distinct black and white "Julattens" that are well over 2 metres and that in fact he came across one earlier this year that was well over 3 metres. He was saying that from the number he's encountered over the years that he doesn't believe there is a naturally occuring dwarf form and was also telling me that he knows Tremain and, to put it politely, said that he doesn't put a lot of faith in what he tells anyone.

    Hi PF,

    The same guy that I mentioned above was also telling me that he's also seen plenty of wild "Djarra's" that exceed well over 2 metres He was also saying that where the landscape changes into the black soil country that you get M spilota that look like an "intergrade" between "MD's" and "Coastals" and that the spilota in the Cape can look like anything from "Coastals" to "Darwin's".
     
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  14. Waterrat

    Waterrat Almost Legendary

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    George, I have been roaming the Julatten area since 1972 and I have see plenty of carpets there and in the adjacent areas. The true B&W carpets are smaller compared to other races BUT there is a mix of different morphs there too. E.g. on Mt. Lewis, which is just up from Julatten you will find large carpets (in the rainforest) that are not B&W at all and the same goes for the ecotone toward Mt. Molloy. Btw, large wild B&W carpets don't look spectacular, nothing like the juveniles and semi-adults. In my opinion, if someone is talking about large "Julatten carpets" they are either not from the core locality or they're captive bred - which is different cattle of fish altogether.
    Cheers
    Michael
     
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  15. GBWhite

    GBWhite Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the feedback Michael. I did question him regarding the location and he said it was in the core locality of Julatten. He also said that it was the most impressive large one he'd seen and that he's pretty sure he has a photo of it somewhere and will try and dig it up send it to me if he can find it. If he does I'll post it here. Not that I doubt your opinion it's just that I just don't see how there could be a definite and distinct race when other morphs live sympatrically. Could it be possible that people don't identify the larger ones as Julatten because they don't look as spectacular as the young ones as they age?
    Cheers,
    George
     
  16. Waterrat

    Waterrat Almost Legendary

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    I think you're on the money there George. If it's not clear B&W it's not a Julatten (to many people). Like always there are exceptions, I have see one or two large B&W ones just like I have seen ordinary looking semi-adults in the sale area.
    Another thing is - what is the Julatten area? It's not really define by any geographical or vegetation boundaries. Julatten is 4 houses opposite to what used to be the school. Long are the days when the railway line used to go right through.
     
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  17. Yellowtail

    Yellowtail Subscriber Subscriber

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    Michael, you are more or less confirming my observations that my Julattens are an unusual morph that have a maximum size of 1.5m, have good black and white contrast and the characteristics can be line bred, all 2nd and 3rd generation animals I have kept are of similar size. It is interesting that a core population of the smaller B&W's seem to survive despite being surrounded by larger carpets. Photo enclosed is a 13 yr old female approx 1.4m - 1.5m, she is going a bit grey but does not have any brown or cream colouration, the base of that tub is 27 x 27.
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    George, I have not personally explored the area the area and we all know about Tremain but I can only go on my experience with my Julattens that I have kept pure and line bred from Tremain's animals. I now have a lot of them, the 2nd generation are no larger than the originals and the 3rd generation seem to have about the same growth for their age. They certainly appear to be a dwarf, for want of a better word, morph and I have no doubt that there are "intergrade" animals in the area which explains why there are a lot of poor quality "Julattens" that loose their contrast and go brown with age. It is easy to dismiss these niche locality morphs but I feel it is worth retaining their unique characteristics.
    I advertise mine as "probably the best B&W Julattens in Aust" and no one has ever challenged me on that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
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  18. Waterrat

    Waterrat Almost Legendary

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    These are typical wild Julatten carpets, that what you see on the average. I think to get more white and more black into them is achievable by line breeding but you seldom see wild ones with more contrasting B&W. R3316.jpg
     
  19. Yellowtail

    Yellowtail Subscriber Subscriber

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    Just cleaned some cages and took the opportunity to check the size of a couple.
    The well fed Julatten male in the tub is around 12 yrs old (I was told it was 3 yrs old in 2008) and approx 1.5m.
    A 4 yr old albino Darwin in the same tub is approx 2.5m and still growing and an average 2yr old albino Darwin.
    IMG_0407.jpg IMG_0422.jpg IMG_0438.jpg
     
  20. auntyjam

    auntyjam New Member

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    Hi Aussiepride83...what are 'Worrell's' in the context u've written, please?
     

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