Cross breeding laws

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Hi Aussiepride83...what are 'Worrell's' in the context u've written, please?

Worrell's turtle - Emydura worrelli is a species of short-necked turtle originally described from the McArthur River which empties into the Gulf of Carpentaria near Borroloola in the Northern Territory. Their taxonomic status is debatable, it has not yet been determined whether it is a full species or a subspecies of the Jardine River turtle - Emydura subglobosa subglobosa, from the Jardine River at the top of Cape York Peninsula and along the south coast of New Guinea. However, both belonging to the Emydura complex, can breed together freely if kept together in captivity resulting in fertile offspring with tainted genetics. In the wild, their distributions do not overlap.

 

[auntyjam]

Worrell's turtle - Emydura worrelli is a species of short-necked turtle originally described from the McArthur River which empties into the Gulf of Carpentaria near Borroloola in the Northern Territory. Their taxonomic status is debatable, it has not yet been determined whether it is a full species or a subspecies of the Jardine River turtle - Emydura subglobosa subglobosa, from the Jardine River at the top of Cape York Peninsula and along the south coast of New Guinea. However, both belonging to the Emydura complex, can breed together freely if kept together in captivity resulting in fertile offspring with tainted genetics. In the wild, their distributions do not overlap.

Thanks for your quick & detailed reply...my interest was in the name 'worrell'...as a child we often visited Eric Worrell's reptile farm near gosford...my brother was a born snake catcher|handler from the 60s to the 80s when he died from a massive heart attack @ the age of 35...as a young boy|teenager he would follow 'uncle' Eric around for hours when we wld visit...it looks like the worrell in ur article is geographical...I love the stories of our fam's herpetological shenanigans & hope u won't mind my sharing one every now & then...thanx for adding me to the group.

 

[cement]

Ahh the old debate still flows but along a different pathway now.
Most of the "purists" veiws came about when some numbnut decided he would smuggle jags into the country, concoct a ridiculous story that they just randomly hatched from a clutch of his own and try to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. Yes, he got away with it, and now happily retires on his income from what many people believe, has stuffed the hobby in this country. We knew it would happen, and I've had conversations with people who bought into his animals, only to end up with a sick feeling in their stomachs after they witnessed the neuro in full flight and (considering the bio-security of our native animals was also pushed aside so these mongrels could make big money selling these retarded mutants) they decided to get away from the jags. Which probably, may be in part, nothing more then damage control.
Its not even the fact that a crossed subspecies is good looking or not, it's more the problem that many first time snake keepers who literally know absolutely nothing about nor even seen a wild snake, thought that breeding diamonds with jungle or bredli with gammon, was perfectly normal and they would produce great looking animals and make a fortune.
People who have been in the game since before jags, were split between money and ethics. But the outcome was always obvious, especially when other countries documentation of their hobby was available and even they were telling us quite openly their thoughts on us crossing our sub species.
Obviously, now, our hobby has been royally f'd over and many who were only in it for the " excitement" of keeping a snake have now realised that their really only another animal and there isn't that associated mystique that used to go along with them.
I'm sorry but, line bred 4th gen julattens will not be much like their wild ancestors at all, that is the narrowing of the gene pool that creates the nice look.
I will listen to the people who have their core focus as ecologists, over hobby breeders, regarding true to form, any day over hobbyists. Many of us are both, but unless you spend time in the bush dealing with dozens if not hundreds of wild snakes in a particular region, and not just listening to what the guy you bought your snakes from story, you can only be guessing or assuming whats really out there.
No offence intended to anyone here, just an opinion. My work has shown me that pretty much every pattern available in "pure snakes" in the hobby, has or would have occurred at some time in the wild anyway.

 

[Wally]

I guess you're just a rung or two above most of us cement.

My opinions on crossbreeding/jags are known on here. But I don't feel the need to belittle those that are here because they want to participate in the hobby.

Your post smacks of arrogance.

 

[Neil j]

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[Yellowtail]

Ahh the old debate still flows but along a different pathway now.
Most of the "purists" veiws came about when some numbnut decided he would smuggle jags into the country, concoct a ridiculous story that they just randomly hatched from a clutch of his own and try to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. Yes, he got away with it, and now happily retires on his income from what many people believe, has stuffed the hobby in this country. We knew it would happen, and I've had conversations with people who bought into his animals, only to end up with a sick feeling in their stomachs after they witnessed the neuro in full flight and (considering the bio-security of our native animals was also pushed aside so these mongrels could make big money selling these retarded mutants) they decided to get away from the jags. Which probably, may be in part, nothing more then damage control.
Its not even the fact that a crossed subspecies is good looking or not, it's more the problem that many first time snake keepers who literally know absolutely nothing about nor even seen a wild snake, thought that breeding diamonds with jungle or bredli with gammon, was perfectly normal and they would produce great looking animals and make a fortune.
People who have been in the game since before jags, were split between money and ethics. But the outcome was always obvious, especially when other countries documentation of their hobby was available and even they were telling us quite openly their thoughts on us crossing our sub species.
Obviously, now, our hobby has been royally f'd over and many who were only in it for the " excitement" of keeping a snake have now realised that their really only another animal and there isn't that associated mystique that used to go along with them.
I'm sorry but, line bred 4th gen julattens will not be much like their wild ancestors at all, that is the narrowing of the gene pool that creates the nice look.
I will listen to the people who have their core focus as ecologists, over hobby breeders, regarding true to form, any day over hobbyists. Many of us are both, but unless you spend time in the bush dealing with dozens if not hundreds of wild snakes in a particular region, and not just listening to what the guy you bought your snakes from story, you can only be guessing or assuming whats really out there.
No offence intended to anyone here, just an opinion. My work has shown me that pretty much every pattern available in "pure snakes" in the hobby, has or would have occurred at some time in the wild anyway.

Hmm, I was going to ignore this but Cement you are not the only one that appreciates the natural beauty of wild reptiles.
I started collecting and studying them in the 1950's in the bush around the then small city of Perth, one thing I did notice very early was that wild populations in distinct districts had their own unique appearance, I found for example populations of Bob Tails (Shinglebacks) in the Northern Suburbs that had the same colours and patterns as the so called "Goldfields" type and Dugites from almost white to almost black and similarly Tiger snakes and Death Adders can have distinct colours in different localities. Colours of rocks and vegetation and local climate are involved but I remember discussions with Harry Butler at the time about reptiles having large clutches of young that mostly stay in a small area and become inbred producing over time unique colour types. This is why we have "Gosford Diamonds" and "Julatten Jungles" and "Hypo Darwins".
I do not see anything wrong with selective breeding to enhance these natural variations and do not see how this can be compared with crossing Jungles with Diamonds to just "see what you get"
I never got on the Jag bandwagon and cannot understand how anyone can intentionally breed animals that are genetically defective to the extent that a significant percentage have to be put in the freezer, I could never do that. Clearly most in the hobby are now awake to Jag problems and this is reflected in the low prices they bring. Unfortunately it is inevitable that escaped or discarded Jags will contaminate the wild Carpet population.
I am not judging those that persist with Jags but I have refused to sell my Julatten hatchlings to more than a few planning to cross them with Jags. Meanwhile I still spend many hours each week off track bushwalking to study the local reptiles.

 

[cement]

Who have I belittled wally? Smugglers who risk our native wildlife and tell newbies bullshit to sell their animals?
Your post smacks of insecurity. I really wouldn't have a clue what you write in your posts, I don't follow anyone here, so i am completely unaware of your opinions.

You are correct YT, its obvious from your posts that you also appreciate our native environment and its wildlife, i'm not particularly trying to offend anyone. The horse bolted years ago. You mention the inevitable entry of jags and their sibs into the wild pops. Just here on the central coast I have, and other relocators I know also have, been pulling out pythons that we have absolutely no idea what their heritage is for the last few years now. I had "conversations" with jag breeders who took offence at my opinions, telling me that jags would never survive in the wild therefore they are not a threat..... but also in the same breath they tell the newbies and everyone else that these animals have very, very little to NO issues and are no different to any other normal healthy python.
Its bad enough pulling out escaped pets that are covered in mite.
I have nothing against line breeding, I do it myself and have been for the last 12 years, like I mentioned, it narrows the genetic diversity and exposes different patterns that are great looking, thats what line breeding does. I am of the opinion that line breeding your julattens, or my diamonds or someone else's bredli etc,etc doesn't necessarily produce anything that probably hasn't naturally occurred anyway, which is in line with exactly what you and Butler were discussing.
I will try to show you what I mean, if I can get a photo of a wild diamond up on here to explain. trust me, these photos will blow away 90% of hobbyists, but the point i'm trying to make is that line breeding pure animals is ok in my opinion.
It is entirely practical to breed a clutch or two each year to cover the expense of maintaining a large collection, I certainly don't have a problem with that.
Surely though, with your background you would try to preserve our native wildlife where possible, because generally, If a person spends time in the bush because they have a natural instinct to do that, then usually they form a love for our native environment. Which makes it hard for me to understand that so called uni grad biologists can feel its ok to bring in not only exotic animals, but animals that are carrying and KNOWN to carry health issues. Whether the ancestral background is Aussie or not.

We NEED a healthy population of wild snakes, for our own survival. But not many people understand why, or even care for that matter, especially if it means easy money.

Once again, no offence intended, though if your a jag breeder, or a smuggler, then I couldn't give a rats what you think.

 

[Yellowtail]

I breed one clutch of Julattens each year when I could breed 10, I refuse to sell them cheap and usually have advance orders for half of them, I keep 2 or 3 for future breeding. I have become a bit obsessive with my albino Darwins and have several breeding projects going, some long term involving naturals, to develop different colours and fluro but they are all pure bred Darwins. I need to sell a lot of these as I can only keep so many.

On the subject of wild reptiles there is one issue that really annoys me and I have raised it in this forum before, that is the public attitude to killing snakes. We have come a long way from the 1950's when "The only good snake was a dead one" but there is a serious lack of education on this. Most of my bush walking is way off track and you don't see anyone but I also walk local National Park tracks and I regularly encounter people, sometimes tourists and often recently arrived immigrants and that is good but you see them carrying big sticks and I'm not talking about walking aids. I usually ask why and always get the answer it's for protection from our dangerous snakes. Some of these people are from countries where there are few reptiles and no doubt they have seen on tv etc how we have the worlds most venomous snakes but many are from Asia, the Middle East and Africa and they really expect a fierce Eastern Brown Taipan Mamba Death Adder to leap out of the bush and chase them. I try as nicely as possible to educate them that our reptiles are mostly shy creatures that will avoid them and that it is illegal to harm any Australian reptiles with a big fine. Sometimes I get a strong response that it is their right to protect their children and they will kill any snake they see, this has escalated a couple of times to the point where I have unfortunately told them where I will be putting their stick if I see them attacking a snake. I personally know of 2 cases where beautiful Diamond pythons that had regularly basked near popular tracks and picnic grounds in the Bobbin Head area were bashed to death by uneducated people "protecting their children", the same children are encouraged to throw rocks at birds and Water dragons, I also found the remains of an unfortunate Death Adder on a track in that same area.
My point here is what efforts are made to educate new arrivals, be they tourists, immigrants, on work visas etc and is there any education in our schools regarding respecting our native animals? Has anyone anywhere been prosecuted for killing a snake? The media has a responsibility here, when did you hear a snake story that pointed out the protected status of the animal, you hear nuts on talk back radio boasting about "Killing a Death adder" and nothing is said - I would put them in jail with some big angry men who might beat them. Usually this type of post gets the response that farmers are fixed in their attitudes and have to protect their animals, dogs etc but I am talking about our National Parks, educating kids, immigrants, tourists.