did a venomous snake handeling course today

Discussion in 'Australian Snakes' started by BIGBANG, Nov 9, 2012.

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  1. eipper

    eipper Very Well-Known Member APS Veteran

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    I run no contact courses in qld pm me for details

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    I run no contact courses in qld pm me for details
     
  2. BIGBANG

    BIGBANG Well-Known Member

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    hey mate i couldnt agree more, i believe that the method although effective when done by someone that knows snakes like i do, when done by a novice or someone that has had nothing to do with snakes i could only see it ending badly, after all if you stop jiggling the snake you have a pretty cranky snake by the tail. i cant see myself using this method very often i might give it a go if the situation is right to do so.
     
  3. Elapidae1

    Elapidae1 Very Well-Known Member

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    As a few people have eluded too the bag is made to look like a good refuge and the hook used to flick the remainder of the body in as the bag is being lifted from the ground.

    Exactly how hook and hoop bag is taught.

    My apologies, I should not have made this comment.
    I thought the OP was referring to another training provider who uses similar methods with safe Elapids

    See above comment.

    You have been handling for many years and your skills learned over a life time.
    Training providers here in WA are not allowed to teach any hands on handling techniques with the belief that there is more risk of a serious bite than if the snake were just allowed to escape.
    As Dave pointed out much of the training is provided to the mining sector and their OH&S policies don't allow for a "SKIN TO SCALE" technique.
    I'm well aware of the limitations of the hook and bag method but feel that a snake that eludes capture is safer than one that is being held by the tail by somebody fresh out of a 1 day course.



    Yes but the thread is about completely green people being taught to tail snakes without the ability or experience to read snakes or understand their capabilities.
    Get any brown snake in a cluttered shed on a 30+ degree day, pin it, tail it, and then try get it into a tub and put the lid on with only 8 hrs experience and your asking for trouble.
    Fair enough it may go un caught with the bag and hook method, but at least nobodies bit.


    I thought I made it fairly clear in my original comments that experience was the key and that those wishing to further their skills would soon seek out ways of gaining that experience. I just feel that no skin to scale is a good rule of thumb for an introductory course that caters to complete novices who quite likely wouldn't be able to identify what they were dealing with anyway.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
  4. spotlight

    spotlight Active Member

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    mate looking at your location how could you find scrubbies in the Philippines more lic burms and retics LoL ?.
     
  5. Jonno from ERD

    Jonno from ERD Very Well-Known Member

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    I've been running "no contact" courses for almost 7 years. We hear a lot of comments from those who like to think safely relocating snakes requires some God-given gift. The vast majority of our clients are industry based - mining, construction, gas, energy, defence, government etc. I would conservatively estimate we have trained over 2000 people in the last 7 years. I am still in contact with many of the course participants and several have commented on this thread. Some of the most successful QLD snake catching businesses have humble roots as participants in our course.

    The key to running these courses is what you're teaching them. At the very beginning of the course we tell them that they walk out of here on their P-plates...but in reality, we have had very few come back to us and say they were faced with a situation they couldn't tackle using the techniques we have taught them. We spent less time on techniques and much more time on teaching them "snake psychology" - how to manipulate snakes into doing what you want them to, how to read their behaviour, and how to think outside the square. The proof is in the pudding - what we teach works. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and there is more than one way to work with a snake. Maybe some of the detractors should come along and learn a thing or two?
     
  6. cement

    cement Subscriber Subscriber APS Veteran

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    Yes good point. For any would be catchers out there reading this post, pinning and then tailing a brown in 30+ temps is definatly the wrong way to catch it, and a very good opportunity to get nailed. Even for the experienced.
     
  7. -Peter

    -Peter Guest

    Thanks for your response Jonno, I always thought gods gift was one of your stronger points myself. I'm playing devil's advocate here. BTW, thanks for the generous offer of attending one of your courses but I couldn't take away the spot of a paying customer.
    Contrary to the opinions of a number of people here I do change mind regulary but I dont change my mind without evidence. People telling me something is so doesn't prove anything. Now we have pinning, grippers(tongs?) and whatever else being bandied about. I know these courses are geared for industry and therefore have to comply with OH&S requirements but it seems that novices are being sent out with a bunch of tools that should never be put in the hands of novices and armed with snake psychology and a certificate. There are several very reputable courses run from several states but I still want to know. Are people piggybacking these course to become snake catchers in urban areas? How do you teach snake psychology of the many variede species or are the courses geared specifically for the snakes that they will encounter at the minesite.
     
  8. BIGBANG

    BIGBANG Well-Known Member

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    our course focused on the main snakes the people doing the course would likely deal with, browns, blacks, tigers, and copper heads, where i live i deal majority with browns with the odd tiger thrown in
     
  9. Jonno from ERD

    Jonno from ERD Very Well-Known Member

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    Hi Pete...don't take too much offense. There's a few oldschool snake catchers up here who love the media and hate what I do, and are quite outspoken about it.

    We don't teach pinning or the use of tongs as there are no situations I can think of that occur with enough regularity that require the teaching of such a technique. We also don't teach tailing, as it doesn't matter which way you spin it, that's an absolute guaranteed way to get a novice bitten. Am I correct that a WIRES course had multiple people bitten teaching their "run after it with your hoop bag in front of you, grab it by the tail and hope for the best" techniques?

    OH&S requirements are developed after the course, not before it. I am not regulated by anyone with regards to the techniques I teach. I regularly write SOP's for large companies with regards to snake catching and they never try and impede on what processes I implement. The reason I teach the techniques I do is because it is 100% safe, 100% of the time. If the course participants adhere to the boundaries we establish, it's virtually impossible for them to get bitten.

    Snake psychology isn't all that variable amongst species. Approach a snake from head on, you'll get a big defensive response...approach it from behind and it will be much more sedate...this sort of thing. Some of it is more complex, other components are more simple. We have had many experienced herps come through the course, sometimes not by choice (you may remember names like Dave Cavendish from years ago, and more recently Michael Anthony from Cape York). I often feel a bit silly teaching these people who I learnt stuff from throughout my youth, but they all walk away saying they at least learnt something.

    You won't walk away from these courses being able to step into a role milking 100 Taipans a day, but you'll walk away with the foundations to successfully capture and relocate elapids in nearly every situation. Like I said, proof is in the pudding - no bites during, or after a course.
     
  10. BIGBANG

    BIGBANG Well-Known Member

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    so how would you go about removing a 6 foot brown out of a shed that is full of conola seed bags, barley, wheat and any other grain farmers like to stuff in their sheds that weigh 30+ kg's without toughing the snake?
     
  11. Wrightpython

    Wrightpython Suspended Banned

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    Ask it nicely
     
  12. Elapidae1

    Elapidae1 Very Well-Known Member

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    With a lot of heavy lifting.
     
  13. Stuart

    Stuart Site Admin Staff Member

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    In that situation, does it need to be removed or will it remove itself after half an hour?
     
  14. -Peter

    -Peter Guest

    Good story but a story. Theres a lot of animosity towards wildlife groups. People make up all sorts of stuff. I dont really understand it myself. Elitism probably. As far as I know only one person has ever been bitten on a WIRES course and that was a trainer. A channel 7 camera man shoved a camera in her face when she was wrangling a brown. Thus our rule of no cameras during traing.
    There was the idiot on our course who got bitten by the red belly though. He blamed the heat.
     
  15. BIGBANG

    BIGBANG Well-Known Member

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    like i have said in other posts mate people round here arent gunna wait patiently for it to finish up doing what ever it is doing, the farmers will just open fire and shoot it if they cant get at it with a shovel, i think the no skin to scale idea might work in some cases but only teaching people that could cause its own problems
     
  16. -Peter

    -Peter Guest

    When it comes to the crunch. If you can deal with a snake without having to place your hands on it then its a winning situation.
     
  17. Fuscus

    Fuscus Power Seller Power Seller

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    Most of the time you don't need to touch elapids. However most of my python and colubrid relocations are hands on affairs. The tend it be wrapped around something and you need to grab and untangle. So far only one elapid I've encountered has been wrapped around something or off the ground.
     
  18. MrFireStorm

    MrFireStorm Active Member

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    Wish that was the case down here. I have had numerous calls to remove tigers and copperheads from birdnetting. Worst thing is they don't seem to appreciate the help you are giving them and still try to bite, even after being released from the net.

    Daz
     
  19. Birdnetting, a very large EB stuck half way through a chicken wire fence (2kg snake), garden sleeper holes, aggy pipes/ fixtures, steel goal posts, down a toilet- all these so far this season (first removal 24/ august). We deal with 100+ callouts most seasons and 90% of those are textillis. In Grafton, I've heard 350+ calls, but alot of pythons/ green trees in the mix also. JMO, but I reckon the more callouts you do, the more situations require no touch (see ya later-dead snake) or hands on.

    BTW, I've done WIRES courses and Jonno's Elapid Husbandry course and can't see what all the animosity is about? Surely, any learning experience is a plus.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2012
  20. -Peter

    -Peter Guest

    I doubt industry courses cover bird netting.
     
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