Do you believe in macroevolution?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Surroundx, Feb 18, 2012.

?
  1. Yes

    94 vote(s)
    82.5%
  2. No

    18 vote(s)
    15.8%
  3. I'm not sure

    2 vote(s)
    1.8%
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  1. Donkey_Kong

    Donkey_Kong Not so new Member

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    thank god you wrote all that, saved me from doing it myself..

    i have tried to study where creationist get their evidence from, but it's so incredibly difficult to find any credible sources or proof at all, 99% of what i've found when looking is stuff that has either been proved to be false or just mindless propaganda..

    then you look at it from the side of people who believe in evolution and there is piles upon piles of documented and proven research, it really is so much that it's impossible to argue against..
     
  2. slim6y

    slim6y Almost Legendary

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    Did the creator create just cells or cells and atoms as well?

    I use the word atoms fairly loosely here, because we can see cells, but not atoms - despite me actually taking a photograph and printing it out of a rubidium atom at the University of Otago.

    Using some fantastic laser set up (laser cooling) - unfortunately I was so awe struck that I wasn't listening to how it all worked - so laser cooling - you could isolate a single rubidium atom for manipulation!

    Amazing aye?

    Well - from what I saw on my print out was a fuzzy white splodge on a noisy background. But the fact we were talking in micro kelvin was just one of the most amazing moments of my life... (before you say I have no life.... have you ever taken a photo of a rubidium atom?).

    So - while we didn't create it - we're getting darn close (I wanted to say darn tooting) to manipulating single atoms and then in the room next door (at Otago Uni), around 200,000 atoms at any one time!

    Amazing???

    I think so!

    So - can a creationist, or someone in the know please tell me - did the creator create atoms as well as cells? Or were the atoms already there and were put into a jig saw puzzle of sorts to the amazing complexity we talk of today?

    Thought I better link to the page:

    27 September 2010 Media Release, University of Otago, New Zealand (there's a photo of the rubidium atom there too - not my one (I call it mine) but one that they isolated recently)
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2012
  3. redlittlejim

    redlittlejim Well-Known Member

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    so i guess the question you may want to answer... is there proof the bible is in fact as old as it is? and yes its proven fact it is... so how are all the prophesies coming true? and the accounts so accurate? like i said, you would need to sit down and have an indepth conversation and discussion before you go labelling it false or mindless properganda. Maybe you dont understand it, or doesnt make sence to you... much like if i picked up a book on biology and just started reading and googled a few terms i wouldnt grasp or understand the full meaning.
     
  4. D3pro

    D3pro Very Well-Known Member

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    Deities are always seen as being separate from the material world. Where the rules of time and space do no apply. Before the big bang was their atoms? If not then "God" would of come before matter. Maybe God is a non biological being made of pure energy? My guess is as good as yours. Maybe God will one day appear and slap as all in the face.

    "Mankind's best scientists came together and challenged god into making life. God proceeded and grabbed some "dust" and created a living being. So too, did the scientist. Using their machines, collected some "dust" and created a viable living being identical to the one created by God. At this, God stopped and said "oh no no no, you have to make your own dust". LOL

    All creation VS evolution aside.

    What was before the big bang? I read many theories where the universe started when a bubble of time and space appeared...? Which would make sense if the universe is expanding, but the more daunting question is what is beyond the walls of the universe? Or is it one of those paradoxes that if you keep going straight in one direction, you will eventually reach your original starting point. A possibility, since time space can bend. And if you mind isn't hurting yet, what of the dark matter which takes up a high amount of the universe... are their different rules in those zones?
     
  5. littlemay

    littlemay Well-Known Member

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    The one that always hurt my mind the most is the pulsating universe theory, endless big bangs and big crunches...
     
  6. Donkey_Kong

    Donkey_Kong Not so new Member

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    fair enough, i'll except that the bible is as old as claimed that's simple after all it's just a book.. however, there are no prophesies coming true, think how many times we've all heard about the end of the world lately only to still be here the next day..

    you say i need to sit down and have an in depth discussion before labelling it mindless propaganda, i actually have many times, i was actually educated at a catholic school, i've spent hours upon hours reading the bible in the past as well as some quite thorough research.. i have to say not a patch of it even come close to truth or fact, it isn't because i don't understand it, i do quite well, does it make sense though, no not even slightly, how can it make sense when it's full of false accounts..

    as i said in an earlier post there is not a single factual account of anything in the bible actually occurring, not one.. now from a book so filled with stories you would have to believe that at least one may be even a little factual but there still isn't one, why, because it isn't real it's fiction..

    there's just so many scientific accounts that disprove these things, look at the Arc do you know the poor genetic state many animals would be in if that had actually occurred, you only have to look at cheatahs which were at one point down to just a few thousand at one point if i recall correctly to see that an animal starting with so few numbers (in the Arcs case its just 2) absolutely destroys any genetic diversity..

    when creationist can present a plausible, logical evidence based argument then maybe i will change my beliefs but until then i'm sticking with the smarter side..
     
  7. littlemay

    littlemay Well-Known Member

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    You don't really know anything about this topic, do you?
     
  8. D3pro

    D3pro Very Well-Known Member

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    Lolol... beat me to it. In fact, many kings and characters have been proven, keeping in mind that the bible isn't "a" book, but a collection of books. Jesus, for example, was real. Historians will readily accept the books of John, Luke, Matthew etc. As separate statements. But if you want further proof, there are other written letters or books mentioning Jesus in his era. (Often describing him as a wise man with magical powers :D )
     
  9. redlittlejim

    redlittlejim Well-Known Member

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    wow, trying to put it politely but you obviously have not had an indepth study of the bible. there are several statements about the earth that are scientific and geological that have been proven THANKS to modern science.. E.g. the earth is round (years before coloumbus).. also the water cycle (earth suspended by nothing etc) when many thought it was an elephant with a turtle etc... the bible was right about all that despite popular belief back when it was written.

    also the bible has been dated and YEARS before certain nations where destroyed it was written that it would occur.

    besides, just because it was a catholic school doesnt mean they have the right answers... could a vet (doctor) say he know how to do open heart surgery? just because he is a doctor or just because they are a religion doesnt mean they are the right person or place for the answers. i personally do not agree with lots of things with catholics... christmas, hell, heaven, trinity etc.

    if you really are keen to know a little i happy to mail you 1little book that might help you :) im even willing to exchange for a book on evolution, i am totally happy to change my faith if i read something that desproves my beliefs
     
  10. slim6y

    slim6y Almost Legendary

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    I wonder if DK was talking about events not people? Such as Adam and Eve, the talking serpent and the Garden of Eden....

    Aesops Fables could also be factual... I bet a tortoise and a hare really did race one day...

    The point of course is - the stories were made by design... Inspired by imagination and beliefs. I assume that's what we're getting at.

    Most people would find it very difficult to believe some or even any of the 'stories' the good book might lead to.

    However, I guess there could have been great floods - but there certainly couldn't have been Noah's Ark - well, certainly not a literal event anyway....
     
  11. Donkey_Kong

    Donkey_Kong Not so new Member

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    well, guess another thanks is in order first for saving me from writing all those questions much better than i could have, which i'm pretty sure still haven't been answered and now for actually understanding what i meant, i probably should've been more clear in what i meant..
     
  12. slim6y

    slim6y Almost Legendary

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    We're doing all we can with current technology to work this sort of stuff out. We're (scientists) not clutching at straws and giving in to the easy answer... One day the answer may very well be that some energy mass created us and the universe - and one day we'll see if we can solve that very mystery - but we'll do it with science and not just some wild guesses.

    They're there for our solving... And that's what we'll do... And if we do find out that the meaning of life really is 42, then so be it.

    "The Babel fish is small, yellow, leechlike, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centers of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.
    Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the NON-existence of God.
    The argument goes like this:
    `I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
    `But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
    `Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.
    `Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
    Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book, "Well, That about Wraps It Up for God."
    Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation."

    PS - Sorry to quote Douglas Adams - but... If it hadn't already been said, it needed to be!
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2012
  13. saratoga

    saratoga Well-Known Member

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    this puts things in perspective
     

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  14. Surroundx

    Surroundx Active Member

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    Pertaining to the Bible:

    "You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you." (NIV)

    (Genesis 6: 19)

    "Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate,..." (NIV)

    (Genesis 7: 2)

    Apart from the fact that 7 animals is 3 pairs ("a male and its mate"), which leaves a lone individual of every clean animal, it seems that there are two different versions of God telling Noah how many animals he is to carry on the ark.

    Pertaining to evolution:

    It depends how much genetic diversity the founding pair had in the first place, as to whether they could reproduce and spread to produce a viable population. There are many species now with less than 1,000 individuals left (total, including both wild and captive population), some of which are almost certainly doomed in the long run because of a lack of genetic diversity. But we really don't know what the precise viability-threshold is, whereby a population falling below the threshold physically cannot remain viable. However, as with the kakapo (Strigops habroptila), some species have apparently "shed" harmful parts of their DNA whereby a normally excessive number of homozygous genes does not seem to affect them as it would a normal species who had not evolved such beneficial changes.

    Of course, I'm not advocating the Noah's Ark story. Just trying to smuggle some evolution back into the thread :)

    No mention of Jesus occurs in any writing dating to when he is believed to have lived. Even the most recent works after his death which mention him are believed to have been written several years to several decades later. The only non-Biblical mainstream work even written not long after Jesus' crucifixion, which mentions him, is Joseph Flavius (c.37-100).

    The Gospel of Mary Magdalene (previously referred to in this thread as "the book of mary madeline") apparently gives a much more human account of Jesus, though I have never read it myself. Here's a link to a web page on it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2012
  15. littlemay

    littlemay Well-Known Member

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    [video=youtube;HEheh1BH34Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HEheh1BH34Q[/video]
     
  16. slim6y

    slim6y Almost Legendary

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    So how many people do you think have been alive in all time to obtain our current population? (this is to the other extreme of the 2 or now 7 animals)

    Some believe as little as 13 billion (you know - at least twice the population we have now) to 125 billion... Quite some variation. But how can we tell?

    If the great flood came along - wasn't it to wipe out all evil? Which means Noah therefore reproduced rather quickly with his one, or 6 other mates... Either way - he had a good excuse for some romantic lovin'.

    Or - were some people spared? Did Noah have room on his ark for a few people who he had become acquainted with and thought were jolly nice people that didn't deserve to be drowned?

    We do know in order to have the diversity we have today we'd have had to have a fair whack of time... Perhaps a lot more than 6,000 years (incidentally, if the 7 days wasn't literal, is the 6,000 years equally as not literal too?).

    So - if a creationists idea of 7 days was much much much longer than an earthly 7 days... Then a creationists idea of 6,000 years would have to be equally long - giving us a date of roughly.....??? Should we just say 4.5 billion years (whether I am right or wrong is insignificant - 6,000 just can't be right for there to have been between 13 billion and 125 billion people on earth!)
     
  17. snakerelocation

    snakerelocation Active Member

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    And? your point? im not sure where macroevolution fits in there. not realy relevant, nor is your baging creation, yet again....
     
  18. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 Guest

    SITE RULE 1 states: Be tolerant of all other users. Remember, we have members of... different nationalities, religions and cultures....
    SITE RULE 6 states: Posts must remain on the topic of the thread.

    I may be wrong but it seems to me things have gone awry. Perhaps people have forgotten that there is a moderator button for reporting posts that are unacceptable under the site rules. Then again, if everybody is happy, who am I to spoil the fun...
     
  19. slim6y

    slim6y Almost Legendary

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    My point - quite clearly, is that the earth must be more than 6,000 years old (which, if I am wrong, sorry, is part of a creationists theory).

    It would have been impossible with life expectations etc etc to allow for 13 - 125 billion people to have ever existed. Therefore it's not bagging, it's just scientific evidence in favour of evolution.

    I'm not sure why you think I am bagging it - I'm merely stating evidential facts.
     
  20. snakerelocation

    snakerelocation Active Member

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    but mate creation has nothing to do with evolution, or macroevolution,

    Creation: the act of producing or causing to exist

    Macroevolution:major evolutionary transition from one type of organism to another occurring at the level of the species and higher taxa.

    Just think we should get back on the right topic. creationest will never agree fully with evolution and vice versa, so its always a loosing battle, and gets no where.
     
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