Do you have any ideas on how we can help the hobby??

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glebo

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G’day all,
I recently wrote an article about the Oenpelli python project I have been working on for a decade and it is in the current Scales and Tails Magazine (Issue 30 – July 2013).
At the end of that article I mentioned the idea that we - as a very large collective of people interested in Reptiles - should have a national representative body that looks after our interests regarding reptiles. That is a tough ask, because any group of reptile people will have very different views on what is good and bad for the hobby, or even for a particular reptile.
I am particularly interested in us all having a say in areas such as:
1. The way that we deal as a group with the wildlife authorities, such that we are consulted and have fair input into decisions that will impact us at both state and national level.
2. Input into the review of state and territories licensing systems to make things easier for keepers and for the authorities.
3. Review the reasons that some states have restrictions on many common reptiles and try to promote logical input from us to facilitate flexibility in their views.

4. Changes in the current ‘lock it up’ mentality that will allow us to make an important contribution to the conservation of Australian reptiles.
Changes that will better align us with the pet industry for mutual benefit.
5. Highlight the skills we have in keeping many common reptile species that can be transferred to other projects and critters.
I would like to think the reptile hobby is mature enough to have a parent group that has the capacity and public support to represent our needs, whether it is at a local grass roots level or in Canberra. There are hundreds of thousands of reptile keeper’s in Australia at the moment and that number is still growing at a great rate. If we are united by a desire to make our hobby better, I believe we can be a strong lobby group. If we, as a coherent group, are able to present a united front on issues - then we can forcefully tackle issues that currently just don’t make sense. At present we are subject to a position of subservience and must accept almost without question the laws, policies and direction we are faced with by authorities.
Without getting too wordy, I am hoping that I can engage as many of you as possible, to get as much feedback as this site will allow and with this, try to put together a plan to make things happen at an Australia wide level for the better – if that is what the feedback shows. To do this I aim to ask five fairly simple, yet thought provoking questions and ask you PLEASE to respond. I will try for one a week but it may stretch out depending on feedback. The more that respond the better the big picture becomes. If you can get family, friends and neighbours who support your right to enjoy reptiles to participate even better!
Question 1 of 5:
The Bearded dragon is one of the most kept reptile pets on the planet. There are people in The USA and Germany breeding many hundreds of thousands for sale each year. In Australia there are dedicated bearded dragon breeders that supply many thousands of bearded dragons for the Aussie market. In the wild they are found over most of the mainland continent in one form or another and are generally very common. I would go so far as to say that Bearded Dragons are more numerous in captivity than budgies. However, each state has a different policy on the keeping of this animal. You are forced to ensure the authorities have a complete record of your bearded dragon, but no one is sure why, nor do you or I have the capacity to question this rule. If, as there appears to be, no underlying conservational reason, nor any accounting or accountability reason for these policies by the various states and territories, then do we need a permit to keep Bearded Dragons?

Thanks heaps for your response
Gavin Bedford July 2013
 
Question 1 of 5:
The Bearded dragon is one of the most kept reptile pets on the planet. There are people in The USA and Germany breeding many hundreds of thousands for sale each year. In Australia there are dedicated bearded dragon breeders that supply many thousands of bearded dragons for the Aussie market. In the wild they are found over most of the mainland continent in one form or another and are generally very common. I would go so far as to say that Bearded Dragons are more numerous in captivity than budgies. However, each state has a different policy on the keeping of this animal. You are forced to ensure the authorities have a complete record of your bearded dragon, but no one is sure why, nor do you or I have the capacity to question this rule. If, as there appears to be, no underlying conservational reason, nor any accounting or accountability reason for these policies by the various states and territories, then do we need a permit to keep Bearded Dragons?

Yes. Currently the law states that you do. If you are asking should the law be changed then I would say no.
I no longer keep any reptiles and only spend my time observing/photographing them in the wild and keeping up date with current conservation efforts. I can see no benifit in a change to the law for me. Of course those who have invested interests/want to do a lot of trading may see it differently. Here the 5 year license fee for the average kid who wants a bearded dragon or two (very easily sourced locally and are what the question was about) is nothing but a minor hindrance and may even give them an extra two minutes to double think that impulse purchase which can only be a good thing.
 
Yes
keep licensing laws in place for all species
just because something is common now does not mean it will still be common in 20 years time
if beardies were permitted how long before other species were also permitted without permits??
worldwide we are entering a period of mass extinction of species and there are virtually no answers to help fix this
although many parts of the laws seem archaic, and probably are, they have helped keep Aussie herps safer than the laws of any other country

But if you asked should the licensing laws be the same throughout Australia for species my answer would also be yes, so long as those laws were based on NT legislation rather than Tasmanian
 
Do we need a licence to keep Bearded dragons in a particular state although restrictions may vary?
Than yes! The restrictions encourage potential herpers to do their reasearch before they buy. It is a small (but a needed hurdle) that potential buyers need to be made aware. Otherwise Beardies and other common reptiles would fall under the ïts a right" not a priveledge scenario that us humans don't seem to grasp!
How would this new practice benefit the community other than make reptiles more readily available to the general public?
If you are that keen and have an interest in any beautiful reptile that you fancy, than do your reasearch and get your husbandary right so you don't palm it off to the nearest animal shelter once the novelty wears off.
 
Yes
keep licensing laws in place for all species
just because something is common now does not mean it will still be common in 20 years time
if beardies were permitted how long before other species were also permitted without permits??
worldwide we are entering a period of mass extinction of species and there are virtually no answers to help fix this
although many parts of the laws seem archaic, and probably are, they have helped keep Aussie herps safer than the laws of any other country

But if you asked should the licensing laws be the same throughout Australia for species my answer would also be yes, so long as those laws were based on NT legislation rather than Tasmanian
Whilst i haven't been around as long as you Longqi it is my understanding that the keeping of reptiles was pretty well unlicenced in Australia up until say 20 years ago and is generally licenced since then. Are you suggesting that the changes in Aussie herp saftey in Australia and the imminent worldwide mass extinction of species, are a result of this? I belive licencing of reptiles in Australia makes no difference to their care in captivity or survival in the wild.
 
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Whilst i haven't been around as long as you Longqi it is my understanding that the keeping of reptiles was pretty well unlicenced in Australia up until say 20 years ago and is generally licenced since then. Are you suggesting that the changes in Aussie herp saftey in australia are a result of this? i belive licencing of reptiles in Australia makes no difference to their care in captivity or survival in the wild.

It is also about the wellbeing of the animal. At what cost for the animal to suffer if it can be obtained by any Tom, Dick and Harry? How many people are there that dont know how to house their reptiles corectly? (you see it pretty much everyday on this forum! I would hate for the floodgates to open for people who do not care than what they do now!

Do I have any ideas to help the hobby?

Hell yes, educate people and show your passion to the community. what you are doing with oenpelli is a testament to this. Exploit it through the schools and community.
 
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It is also about the wellbeing of the animal. At what cost for the animal to suffer if it can be obtained by any Tom, Dick and Harry? How many people are there that dont know how to house their reptiles corectly? (you see it pretty much everyday on this forum! I would hate for the floodgates to open for people who do not care than what they do now!
I dont think you need to have a licence to ask questions on this forum. I dont think you need any reptile knowledge to get a licence. How does licencing stop animal suffering? I dont think licencing makes any difference to the wellbeing of animals or their suffering; captive or wild!
 
Do we need a licence to keep Bearded dragons in a particular state although restrictions may vary?
Than yes! The restrictions encourage potential herpers to do their reasearch before they buy. It is a small (but a needed hurdle) that potential buyers need to be made aware. Otherwise Beardies and other common reptiles would fall under the ïts a right" not a priveledge scenario that us humans don't seem to grasp!
How would this new practice benefit the community other than make reptiles more readily available to the general public?
If you are that keen and have an interest in any beautiful reptile that you fancy, than do your reasearch and get your husbandary right so you don't palm it off to the nearest animal shelter once the novelty wears off.
As far as I am aware there is no knowledge requirements to get licences in Australia. How does licencing encourage research? except of course reserch on how to get a licence. removing licencing removes yet another beaurocratic interference, but isn't the question if removing licencing will benefit reptiles rather than the community.A few people might lose their jobs but other than that zilch effect on reptile or human.
 
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I dont think you need to have a licence to ask questions on this forum. I dont think you need any reptile knowledge to get a licence. How does licencing stop animal suffering? I dont think licencing makes any difference to the wellbeing of animals or their suffering; captive or wild!
Possibly by buying sponteniously in pet shops. If people required a licence to buy cats and dogs at a pet shop then I strongly believe that will curve the impulse buy scenario.
 
Possibly by buying sponteniously in pet shops. If people required a licence to buy cats and dogs at a pet shop then I strongly believe that will curve the impulse buy scenario.
Do you think if you could get a dog and cat licence without any knowledge, instantly on line at the petshop, possibly using a fictitious name and address for say $25 it would save many impulse buys of $400 dogs and cats? The system has so many holes in it it is pointless.
 
You were asked to answer a question with your opinion not whinge about/argue with other people about theirs.
 
'If it ain't broke don't fix it' seems a pretty apt statement as far as I can see...
 
My anser is absolutely yes.
I cant speak for other states but here in QLD the licensing system is a joke. If anything, we should be making it harder to get, not easier. Reptiles are very different to other animals, this is the whole reason you need a license in the first place. Like you said, enough people are already keeping Bearded dragons, getting rid of the license factor would only increase impulse buying, by people who don't have a clue about reptiles. Having a license also stops pet shops from trying to sell the expensive pets to customers with out the proper knowledge of these animals. Bearded dragons have much harder care requirements than a cat or dog, getting a license won't make you a good keeper, but at least it means that a person has to do some thinking before they can purchase the lizard and hopefully some research as well.
 
I believe that if you deregulate the ownership of any species it then becomes easier for wild capture and even worse it makes it easier for people to release their captive bred animals into the wild, Why anybody would want our native reptiles deregulated is beyond me
 
we should have a national representative body that looks after our interests, if we had one maybe the COP would not have passes or we may have had our opinions heard.

the other states should worry as they may follow with their own COP especially as money is involved with fines.

but as i see it we have no say at all and wen we try to have a say they shut us out.

over the last 2 weeks i have called DECC 5 times and not once have they answered the phone and i have left 3 voice mails for them to call be back regarding an import permit i paid for 6 weeks ago and have not recieved. its a joke.

 
I am going to refer only to the vic and qld licence system as they are the ones I am familiar with. In QLD you can buy your licence online and you receive your licence number straight away. A basic costs approx. $60 + $10 for a record book. There is no knowledge requirement (hence all the basic questions that get asked on here) and some petshops will even help you apply in-store. How is that meant to stop impulse buying?

In Vic it is a bit more difficult to get your licence. You actually have to post a form and then your licence gets posted to you. This is a process that takes a few weeks and as such offers a cooling off period. This may stop impulse buying.

I know the vast majority have said that beardies should be kept on licence and so I am going to ask a question of my own.

Licencing for native fauna is in place to reduce poaching of wild animals and the illegal sale of said animals. In Victoria you do not have to possess a wildlife licence to keep eastern blue tongues. As a group should we be lobbying for blue tongues to be put on licence and if not, what makes your thoughts on them different to those on beardie licencing? Eastern blue tongues, like beardies are common and a lack of licencing doesn't seem to have affected their populations.

I look forward to seeing some more interesting discussion.
 
Vic license is as easy as getting a money order/bank cheque and sending it off and in 4 weeks you can go buy Vens...
 
Vic license is as easy as getting a money order/bank cheque and sending it off and in 4 weeks you can go buy Vens...

True, but don't forget we also need our license notarized by a JoP, not sure if any other states need that.

That said I think Vic has some of the best, most well rounded licensing of all states.
 
[do we need a permit to keep Bearded Dragons?] Of course we do, it's all got to do with accountability, when we are licensed we have that shadow looming "however insignificant" of the licensing authority making a random visit to make sure your animal is being kept in optimal conditions and health, we scoff at this suggestion "BUT" how many people from just this forum came on here panicking about the size of their enclosures and whether they were in adherence to the new NSW CoP, so in just reading how many here had issues just imagine how many more had the same issues outside of this forum, it shows that more people than we first thought still feared the random inspection that may or may not ever occur. Although at first we whinge and whine about the costs involved with licensing it is still a necessary evil IMHO. As far as a representative body is concerned i feel it has been explored via other herp societys in the past but it is very hard to put together because of the changing regulations in every state, IMO it might be better for every State and Territory to try and put together their own Representative bodies rather than 1 federal unit trying to juggle all, to this end you need to have someone who has alot of spare time and has a very good relationship with their State or Territory member of Parliament or you may as well just forget about it because something like that is going to need alot of pushing so it gains the momentum needed to stand alone when it gets to the Green Room. :)....................................Ron
 
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The whole licensing system should be abolished. It doesn't prevent poaching, it doesn't prevent animal cruelty and the proceeds definitely don't go towards habitat protection, education or go towards anything beneficial for herps or herpetology.

It's obvious there is something wrong with the system when a person can be fined (by the same people who are apparently meant to protect reptiles) for moving a wild reptile out of harms way.
 
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