Eastern brown snake

Discussion in 'Field Herping and Reptile Studies' started by vicherps, Jul 7, 2012.

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  1. vicherps

    vicherps Active Member

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    I always take on the approach to expect the unexpected with snakes. I don't free handle dangerously venomous elapids because in my opinion it is a unnecessary risk to take.

     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2012
  2. fantapants

    fantapants Active Member

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    Handling EB's is my focus as i'm well aware of their desire to keep well clear of humans when confronted, being an extremely difficult snake to get good photos from due to their nervous demeanour tailing a EB for proper positioning is pretty common and this is when distractions or complacency can result in getting tagged without warning. Not knowing any of you personnaly and what experience you may have handling elapids my own experience of 15 years relocating elapids,( almost 90% of all callouts being EBS around metro Adelaide) compels me to offer advice only when i feel maybe someone who might have limited experience fall into a complacent attitude towards brownsnakes due to a handfull of encounters with some less agitated or quite calm/placid snakes belying the true defensive, and ready to strike snakes they will encounter in the future. Its not advice to demean someone its my own experiences that compels me to keep people safe from any harm in the future from one of the only aussie snakes which demand respect everytime, all the time. Nothing more to be said from me. be safe fellow herpers
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2012
  3. Firepac

    Firepac Subscriber Subscriber

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    Also worth a read is " The defensive strike of the Eastern Brownsnake, Pseudonaja textilis (Elapidae) by Whitaker, P.B, Ellis, K. & Shine, R. Functional Ecology 2000, 14, 25-31"

    A couple of quotes from the above worth noting....

    " Contrary to popular opinion, Eastern Borwnsnakes are reluctant to deliver firm bites in response to human harassment even when continuously provoked. It is estimated that only 15% of the strikes recorded had the potential to cause significant envenomation"

    " Overall, unrestrained Eastern Brownsnakes are surprisingly tolerant of human harassment, and communicate their offensive intentions through elaborate display (often mistaken for agression)"

    "Hence, many of our results are counter-intuitive, and run counter to prevailing opinions. For example,
    (1) brown snakes tolerated substantial harassment before launching a defensive strike, especially when close to their preferred body temperature;
    (2) small individuals were more tolerant of harassment;
    (3) the snake's strike was relatively slow (<2 m/s);
    (4) strike speed was not significantly affected by body temperature, gender or size;
    (5) most brownsnakes gave a warning of an imminent strike;
    (6) a quarter of all trikes were bluff or aborted;
    (7) most of the strikes missed the target;
    8) strikes preceeded by full display were slower, but more accurate and more often involved firm bites and venom expenditure;
    (9) thus, only 15% of all strikes had the potential to cause singificant envenomation."
     
  4. Nice bit of info, firepac. I also deal mostly with EB's around the New England and have had few problems, though it's always wise to keep an eye on the pointy end with any elapid.

    I've also rehabed a few EB's with a variety of wounds varying in severity and believe ,with gently handling, nervous defensive displays towards the rehabber(?) greatly reduce over time. In my experience..
     
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  5. fantapants

    fantapants Active Member

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    Last edited: Jul 15, 2012
  6. hilly

    hilly Active Member

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    ^ yeah Rick shine is a lab rat.... I mean what field work has he ever done?
     
  7. Snake_Whisperer

    Snake_Whisperer Very Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't going to bother adding to this thread, but your flippant disregard of the findings of respected, experienced, and peer-reviewed researchers is ridiculous. I'm not trying to contradict or belittle your opinion, but your assertion that there's "no such thing as a placid EB" is just horse plop. At no stage did anyone advocate complacency with any elapid (other than yourself with the tiger/rbb analogy), and I know of no elapid relocator or handler (myself included) that would treat these animals with anything other than well deserved respect. With regards to your calling the research of R. Shine et. al. "a load of crap"... well, what can I say but... :facepalm:

    Please stop, you're making us all... less astute... with your "contributions".

    :D
     
  8. saratoga

    saratoga Well-Known Member

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    Note that Rick Shines work and results deal with unrestrained wild Brown Snakes in the field. Start tailing/restraining Brown Snakes and you probably up the ante considerably
     
  9. hilly

    hilly Active Member

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    Do yourself a favour champion and google Rick shine. Or you could go and buy one of his many published books.
     
  10. saratoga

    saratoga Well-Known Member

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    Do some research. Rick Shine is one of the foremost herpetologists in the country, especially when it comes to elapids. He is equally at home in the field or lab, and all his findings are backed up with hard science and a wealth of experience. He is definately not "one of those" academics up there in the realms of theory without hands on experience. I can assure you he treats all venomous snakes with due respect.

    No one here is advocating that EBs should not be treated with the utmost respect given their potential to inflict fatal bites; it's just that their reputation for being aggressive and attacking on site is grossly exaggerated and is not supported by any evidence and this is borne out in his series of studies and papers... read them before you misconstrue what is being said!

    Well known american herpetologist Clifford Pope once said that 'Snakes are first cowards, next bluffers, and last of all warriors'... an appropriate quote here!
     
  11. Firepac

    Firepac Subscriber Subscriber

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    Snakeface, you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine but you are not entitled to call members of this forum dumbasses and try to give the impression that your opinions are superior to anyone elses or to respected reserchers. Your post has been reported to mods.

    Saratoga, compleetly agree in initial ante is upped but in my experience they do soon calm down and become relatively placid.
     
  12. fantapants

    fantapants Active Member

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    im not interested in knowing who rick shine is, what can his book teach me? why do we treat so many people involved with reptiles like rockstars when its the reptiles themselves who are the true superstars! in 15 years of dealing with venomous snakes in their own enviroment nearly everyday for six months a year adding up to hundreds of wild caught and relocated snakes without ever being bitten makes me the most experienced person regarding safe handling and intimate knowledge of the snakes behavior than someones brief study of a handful of snakes over a couple of years and if you lot think that ridiculous study is an excuse to get complacent around something that looks the same it doesnt mean they react the same way. Just like you and me... you should respect MY advice not disregard it because you havnt heard of me! if it takes having to be on tv or In some magazine or publish a book to get respect thats ridiculous, its the proffessional local snake catchers advice you should heed! if my name was Rob Ambrose or barry goldsmith who i respect as they do me i bet it would have been a little more respectful than what i recieved

    remove me from this site admin, thank you
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2012
  13. eipper

    eipper Very Well-Known Member APS Veteran

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    Snake face,

    Now I am not saying this is an intelligent thing to do nor I don't think I would do it theses days but.....

    [​IMG]

    Not all elapids including browns and taipans are out to bite. This shot was taken back in 1999 during a demo a mate was running that I was involved in. (Sorry about the shut eyes...but this was before digital)

    Cheers,
    Scott
     
  14. Damn Scott!!.... that's just opened a can of.....snakes!!!:).
     
  15. ssssnakeman

    ssssnakeman Almost Legendary

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    I can photshop some eyes on that for you scott, lol..

    For the record, brownsnakes can be placid, red bellies can be demons...

    Depends on the snake and the human that is interacting with it.
     
  16. saratoga

    saratoga Well-Known Member

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    Very true and the human part of the statement can be a very significant contributor to the snakes temperament and outcome!
     
  17. hilly

    hilly Active Member

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    Since you respect Rob (who I am mates with) and Barry, may I suggest giving them a call and asking them about Rick Shine. While you're on the phone to Rob, feel free to ask him for my number and you can give me a call too. I'd be more than happy to talk to you, about catch and release and captive husbandry of elapids.

    No-one has questioned anything you've claimed, except when you have questioned Rick Shines peer reviewed papers, and his field experience. Also, if you don't learn something from Shines book "Australian Snakes- A Natural History" I'll be very VERY surprised.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Shine#section_3
     
  18. eipper

    eipper Very Well-Known Member APS Veteran

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    Don't get me wrong I am an advocate for sensible handling of venomous snakes, I have stuffed up and have suffered some of the effects of it. However, for people to say that you cannot freehandle this or that....well that claim is just begging to be proved wrong.

    I maintain that certain forms of freehandling (not the w:"ker type stuff above) is a suitable method to handle/move some elapids, but you could do it much safer by using a shift or trap box.

    Baz....Mulgas are the worst.....they think everything is food.....
     
  19. hilly

    hilly Active Member

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    You just hit the nail right on the head mate.
     
  20. IgotFrogs

    IgotFrogs Very Well-Known Member

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    You can remove your self very simply by just not logging back on. it works very well
     
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