Discussion in 'General Reptile Discussion' started by Iguana, Jan 4, 2018.
One more spin.
All aboard... ..
Whatever mate, name calling shows how immature you are and how little you know. George may know a lot about many reptiles but when it comes to turtles, specifically, I'm sorry but I've got him covered. Take it or leave it... simple. George said he disagreed with me and that's fine, he's entitled to and he's a big boy and doesn't need you playing big brother. But thanks for the laughs anyway.
You have provided me with some enrichment... lol
Oh golly gee indeed! Wally's ride is now closed. Lets not send this thread down the same path!
Just like to point out this awesome feature called 'ignore'
I use it on those members who I find really boring, tedious or frustrating. You know......the ones that press my buttons.
It's amazing how much nicer the forums become when you add just one or 2 of the most obnoxious members to your 'ignore' list.
Try it....its free
I agree a lot with GBWhite however there has been studies that are suggesting that reptiles do respond to enrichment that address behavioural needs. Though admittedly a lot more study is needed to be done on this before it can be generalised to other reptile species. The following two below are from a quick ten minute search and is very encouraging for the future of reptile research.
Bashaw M, Gibson M, Schowe D, Kucher A. Does enrichment improve reptile welfare? Leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) respond to five types of environmental enrichment. Applied Animal Behaviour Science , November 1, 2016;184:150-160.
Burghardt G. Environmental enrichment and cognitive complexity in reptiles and amphibians: Concepts, review, and implications for captive populations. Applied Animal Behaviour Science [serial online]. August 1, 2013;147(Welfare of Zoo Animals):286-298. Available from: ScienceDirect, Ipswich, MA. Accessed January 6, 2018.
All my reptiles have been kept in environments which mimic their wild environments, such as burrowing areas, hide spots ect. Now that I have converted them all to bioactive environments, I have noticed many of them will also take a chance at some of the clean up crew.I also feed my reptiles a varied diet as often as I can and that includes the time of day ect I personally think that allows your reptiles to be most "entertained ", "stimulated" what have you. With eve
I don't think tubs are generally the wrong way of keeping animals, I view it as a micro environment type of habitat , like inside a burrow. I just don't see the point of keeping beautiful pets and then locking them away out of sight when out in the wild you have some of the most varied and breathtaking environments.
It sort of works.
If you're not logged in then obviously those that annoy are visible.
If you are logged in then the conversation comes across as disjointed and hard to follow.
If you don't utilise it then you may have steam coming out of your ears.
First world problems I guess.
You should make a thread with a write up and pictures of your enclosures. I would love to see how they look and read how you put them together.
Live love and let the good times roll.
that's actually quite awesome, as someone who loves rodents.
She's beautiful! Let her have the printer lol. I love big parrots, they're so intelligent and colorful, and a complete handful by the sounds of it. I'd love a parrot but sadly I don't have the time or space right now.
Enrichment for reptiles
Is this it?
I'm not sure.
Has your stumpy worked out how to operate your washing machine?
As you can see, not yet
Behavioural enrichment may or may not be beneficial to all species. So, when referring to "reptiles" we are really generalizing far and wide. E.g. large varanids, crocodiles, etc., are very different to Death Adders, geckos, etc., physically, physiologically, ecologically and behaviourally. And comparing reptiles to birds or mammals is outright ridiculous.
I have to agree with Michael.
Animals kept in captivity can be kept in a manner that leaves them deprived of the ability/need (and maybe even the will) to be active which will promote muscle development and good health.
While I also agree with George that a reptilian brain is not is not well enough developed to suffer from boredom/depression I do and have seen animals that have had complete changes in behaviour after they have been moved to what I describe as being a more appropriate enclosure.
There is certainly a case to argue that a reptiles needs MAY not be fully met when keeping them in small tubs/racks though I think it depends upon the design/size or the tub and its contents. The size/species of the animal and even individual animals within a species. During my first 25 years of keeping/breeding reptiles I hated the very concept of tubs & racks but now I do use racks for some of my animals and I find some of them have flourished in that environment while others have been moved back to enclosures because they just don't seem to do so well.
Problem lies not with tubs/racks/or even the 'enrichment' of the enclosure the animal is kept in but with the keeper themselves.
I get sick to death of hearing how you MUST keep young snakes in a tub because 'they won't do well' in an enclosure. What absolute BS. In my opinion these statements are used because people want to justify their actions rather than take the time to understand what the animal actually needs. I have been keeping young snakes in enclosures for many many years so either I have been lucky an awful lot of times or someone else has got it wrong.
Different species have different behavioural repertoires. An ambush hunter that spends nearly all its time lying in wait or down a burrow, log or in a rock ledge digesting its meal, is likely a good candidate for a rack system. However an active forager clearly is not likely to be so well suited. I believe there is a difference between maintaining a reptile by providing just its essential needs for living and catering for its instinctive behavioural drives as well. As a kid I recall seeing an Eastern water dragon in a pet shop with a centimetre plus of jaw bones and teeth protruding from the front of its snout. It had been kept in a canary wired fronted box from which it obviously kept trying to escape, despite the pain it must have been causing itself. Its essential needs to keep it alive had been met but its behavioural needs clearly had not been. So if you raised a water dragon in that same cage, but with a glass front, and the lizard looked physically alright, would that make it OK?
I don’t wish to re-ignite the fire but I believe the following needs to be said. “Paranoid” is totally the wrong term to be using to describe predator avoidance behaviour in animals. Apart from being anthropomorphic, the term means responding to an imagined belief that others are trying to do you harm. It is a condition that is often the result of severe mental illness. “Insecure” denotes a lack of belief in one’s self and abilities, resulting in feeling unsafe and/or anxious without a real reason. Little wonder people were defensive - such comments are clearly derogatory in nature. All this served to do is generate a non-constructive argument that resulted in mostly frustration and anger. Yet so easily avoided with a little thoughtfulness beforehand and being more considerate of others rather than so insensitively dogmatic.
i think they can suffer from depression, goldfish can and do all the time, so why wouldn't things as smart as crocs and monitors?
Just so that others understand that you are not being anthropomorphic, there is a biological definition of depression that applies to organisms in general: “a lowering of physical or mental vitality or of functional activity”.
That may well be the case with the water dragon I mentioned. I don’t know. However, the point to be made here is that providing the basic essential needs that allow growth and even achieving reproduction in captive reptiles, does not necessarily mean that keepers are providing for all the needs of their animals. Reptiles also have varying behavioural needs that are not necessarily essential for life.
We are definitely getting a lot better at providing for the behavioural drives with our captive reptiles. Most care sheets and keeping guides these days have a section devoted to ‘natural habits’. The purpose of this is to help keepers understand the normal wild behaviour of a given species and to incorporate these behavioural needs into the captive environment as best we can. Michael Cermack gave us an excellent exemplar of this with captive GTP’s.
With animals of higher intelligence, they often have to use this ability as virtually a puzzle solving exercise to gain access to food. So this behavioural need translates into a rather different form of environmental enrichment.
The foregoing is my take on the issue and I don’t expect that others necessarily concur.
Maybe get an old second hand cheapy printer so she can do what she likes, and have your (under attack) printer somewhere else. Beautiful bird by the way.
It would have to be a modern one with illuminated touch controls but if I let her stay there she would become bored with pecking the lights and demolish the whole thing.