Evidence fish grew legs much earlier than thought

[D3pro]

The best question for any believer in creationism, is who created the creator of the creators creationists, creators creator? Then when you answer that ask the same question again about who made that creator.

haha, time is irrelevant, you and I only have a perception of time because we ourselves were created... if there is no actual force as time but rather we are still then there can easily be a being that always was and always will be.

Many say the universe is timeless, if so, then the universe too has no start... and so no end... but what is the universe but empty space filled with things that had a start, things created by something that didn't have a start.

 

[Renagade]

this may have already been pondered...
for the christians: do you think that jesus literally walked on water, rose from the dead...water to wine?... ie, Do you think that the bible is full of facts? that the text was played out as it is written? do you also have and/or support sexest values for women and condem homersexuals? and do you think that societies values can let you adapt the bible for contempory living? ie: is it timeless or is it dated?
i have a variety of friends on all scales of this debate. I have an anglican reverend friend who works in perth who doesn't believe that the bible factually happened but that it is a beautiful way to live harmoniously with 'god' represented a on earth in multiple ways. I have a lesbian friend who goes to a catholic church at least once a week, is a devoured catholic christian even though her own faith condems her. Also muslims, buddists, and an australian amount of athiest who celebrate christian hollidays when it is lucritve... and the a small amout of actual athiests.

It is an interesting debate, not really worth hacking on about why god lets things happen and for what reasons, the fact that there is so many different types of religion to me falsafies all of them. kinda like if you ask people if they think they are good drivers... 90% people respond in saying that they are an above average driver... it makes no sense???

have you seen 'life on earth' the bbc doco series? do you think it is far fetched?

ok that is alot of questions... but i do have one more REALLY important one
i AM gay,
I am NOT a virgin...

am i going to hell?

 

[Fuscus]

Firstly Cris , the Bible does indicate to us that the world is round, just doesnt make a big deal about it. See Isaiah 40:22. "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth and its people are like grasshoppers"

I read that as people having six legs and compound eyes?

Do you actually know the meaning of theory or are you just parroting the standard creationist tripe?

Fourthly (if there is such a word?) Concerning Darwin...his theory was conceived in 1859 before electron microscopes etc. A lot has changed since then...and a lot of his theory is falling apart. Lets start here, he said, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
--Charles Darwin, Origin of Species
With our modern technology we now discover organisms like the bacterial flagellum which are certainly complex and are not reducible in its complexity. Not to mention Darwin's ideas on the so called simple cell.....which is completely been blown out of the water. I agree that animals can and do evolve, to a degree but not to the extent of the diversity of life in our world. Another interesting fact is the statistical probability of these evolution steps to occur are far beyond absurd. eg for a red blood cell to be formed by chance from the amino acids it consists of are 1 in 10 to the power of 650...for those mathematicians out there will realise the magnitude of such a number. And before I get the "you are blind and ignorant and know nothing of science" retorts , I am very much into science and had studied it my entire life. I got dragged to church but after examining the facts and doing extensive research I have made up my own mind. It is just hard for people to believe anything but evolution because it gets drummed into us from childhood at school. In case you had not gathered by now, I believe in GOD. Anyone one want to argue some more iI welcome it..[/QUOTE]

 

[Fuscus]

Whoops - I posted before completion

Firstly Cris , the Bible does indicate to us that the world is round, just doesnt make a big deal about it. See Isaiah 40:22. "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth and its people are like grasshoppers"

I read that as people having six legs and compound eyes?

Secondly the Theory of Evolution is just that...a THEORY meaning that it has not been proven.

Do you actually know the meaning of theory or are you just parroting the standard creationist tripe?

Thirdly the whole chimp thing , does it not make sense that all of someones' works share similarities...seeing as they are made by the same person???

the fact we share a common ancestor is far more logical

Fourthly (if there is such a word?) Concerning Darwin...his theory was conceived in 1859 before electron microscopes etc. A lot has changed since then...and a lot of his theory is falling apart. Lets start here, he said, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
--Charles Darwin, Origin of Species

With our modern technology we now discover organisms like the bacterial flagellum which are certainly complex and are not reducible in its complexity.

read this -> Evolution of Bacterial Flagella WARNING - comtains big words
Actually the hypothesis that because 32 proteins are unlikely to form a chain means that a incredibly complex being must have spontaneously appeared is intellectually feeble.

Not to mention Darwin's ideas on the so called simple cell.....which is completely been blown out of the water. I agree that animals can and do evolve, to a degree but not to the extent of the diversity of life in our world. Another interesting fact is the statistical probability of these evolution steps to occur are far beyond absurd. eg for a red blood cell to be formed by chance from the amino acids it consists of are 1 in 10 to the power of 650...for those mathematicians out there will realise the magnitude of such a number.

So - how many times have the dice been rolled? Your numbers are meaningless unless you can tell me how many mutations have occurred. A good place to start would be to tell us how many animals have lived on this planet
Anyhow, this is the stock standard creationist misinterpretation of how evolution works. Red blood cells are the result of millions and millions of random changes with some being kept while most discarded. Wind back the clock and red blood cells would have evolved into something different but still done the job.

And before I get the "you are blind and ignorant and know nothing of science" retorts , I am very much into science and had studied it my entire life.

Then why don't you know what a scientific theory is?

I got dragged to church but after examining the facts and doing extensive research I have made up my own mind. It is just hard for people to believe anything but evolution because it gets drummed into us from childhood at school. In case you had not gathered by now, I believe in GOD. Anyone one want to argue some more iI welcome it..

 

[Just_Plain_Nuts]

Ok lots of questions and debates to answer but this morning i only have time to answer one because i have to go outside and make a bearded enclosure for my sister in law. But to answer your question Renegade...No one is perfect, not any christian, we are just forgiven of our wrong doings. Jesus did not come only for the good, the pure,and the right. He came to find the sheep who are lost. Mark 2:17 says. On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." All can be forgiven through repentance to Christ. God has not asked us to do anything that He doesn't give us the ability (Grace) to do. You are not expected to get saved and instantly go straight. It would take time and His help to work through it should you ever decide to seek Him. God loves mankind so much that even when we were at the height of our sinful nature and had turned away from Him so many times, He sent His Son to redeem us of our sins so that we can be reconciled with God. I have so many others things to say but i have to stop for now...look forward to more

 

[grimbeny]

God loves mankind so much that even when we were at the height of our sinful nature and had turned away from Him so many times, He sent His Son to redeem us of our sins so that we can be reconciled with God.

I think you will find he only did this in round 2, which at this stage is meant to be more mediocre than round 1. In round 1 god just drowned everyone except one family, which apparently we are all decendants from. I dont think drowning is a humain way to put down rats let alone people.

Your god is anything but forgiving. If he does exist he has hidden ALL evidence of his existance. He only plans to forgive those select few who grew up in a christian nation and got lucky enough to be brainwashed by a minority of cultists. Their are other cults however but people brainwashed by these will suffer the same torturous suffering for eternity as those who choose to open their eyes, look at the amazing processes and systems that exist in the universe which have credible origins that are just waiting to be discovered (obviously the evidence for these origins was planted by god to cover his tracks).

 

[Hominid]

don't forget noah was an amazing man who collected two of every speacies of animal, every bird, mammal, reptile, insect ect, an astonishing effort if you consider the amount of speacies out there and we are still finding new ones to this day, then after it all was over he proceeded to inbreed to repopulate the earth, correct me if im wrong but isn't incest condemmed. im sure there is a more reasonable explanation then this.

 

[Hominid]

did noah get into heaven after such dispicable acts? and why can't i breed with my relatives? lol, i really hope the story of noahs arch is a metaphor for something cause it doesn't make sense.

 

[GeckoJosh]

No inbreeding is ok, don't forget we are all children of Adam and Eve

 

[garycahill]

Well I read lots of science mags, i love them, and one of the top guys (can't be bothered getting it out) said that how the first micro organism were formed is still a mystery...

aaand the clock analogy was not for evolution but for the appearance of the first cell... again... I can shake the atoms needed and nothing will happen, maybe gas will come out...

and here we have another problem.... Theory, evolution is a theory... anyone want to look up a dictionary?

Excuse My French emotion, but it seems that theres a herd of evolutionist attacking the creationists... I'm not even bring up the bible, no need... science is great don't get me wrong, but sometimes big adults have to admit that they don't understand everything

Can't be bothered to get them out but still cite them as proof?
I am not sure they even exist, just a way to back up your arguement.
The thing that get me is that all this happened so long ago, science hasn't got all the answers or proof, yet!
Yet there is absolutely no proof that a "creator" ever existed & that is supposed to over rule the sciences findings. If anyone can show evidence that a "creator" actually exists or existed, I would love you to post the proof, along with every other rational person on this planet. How can someone blindly believe in something that wasn't even written by someone who had even met the creator. In a court of law, this would be dismissed as hearsay evidence, which at the end of the day, is all it actually is.

 

[coz666]

show me god and then i will believe
go to the museum and see evolution

 

[Hominid]

basically you can't sit back and bag evolution for lack of proof then say we were created by a superiour being who we cant see, hear, touch, or PROVE.

 

[D3pro]

ha ha, it's like going around in circles... well this is my last post cause no matter what I say it's not going to solve anything lol, (it's worse then telling people from the orthodox church that there is no hell haha)

The universe has we know it (or at least, what we know of it) is run by a set of rules...gravity, light...etc. Science role is to discover those rules, and use them to our advantage, or in most cases our disadvantage. Those rules make it impossible for life to be made from a source that is not living, fact people, get over it. Proof cannot be found because science is looking for proof based on the laws it works by.

No one has ever created life from nothing, many have claimed too, or that they are about too, but always lack the final results.

So how can life be made if life should be impossible? simply put, the rules have to be bent and broken, this is why miracles have happened and no one can explain them, of course no one can explain them, miracles don't follow laws. Life is a miracle, and so cannot and will never be explained by the laws that science lives by.

Proof of a creator is all around us! Every thing in the world had a purpose and design, to look at these designs and say that it's out of coincidence is heartless. Almost like the clock that came out of random... who made the parts? who made it fit?

I'm not going on about bible stuff, or taking on a religion and preaching to you about it, I'm just saying that science explanation of life popping out at random is silly, and yet it's not, because science can only explain life by the rules it follows.

Believe what you want, I don't want to change your opinions. If you are satisfied with the answer that life came out of random then ok, stick with it. But if your like me and look at the world and the universe for what it is, a design that was made with a purpose, then the only answer is that there is a creator... one that can bend the rules and create the impossible. Like Einstein said, the answer is in our imagination.

 

[garycahill]

Still haven't posted any proof that a "creator" exists or ever existe,
or posted any references as to where the information that you are quoting comes from.
Key points conveniently overlooked.
The clock came from the roman calander, the clock was invented to measure the increments of time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_calendar
This still isn't a perfect system, that's why we have leap years, but it is close.
Both are actually just measurements of speed.
The speed it take the earth to revolve on it's axis - 1,670 kph
The speed it take the earth to revolve around the sun - 107,825 kph
So, the clock & calander was invented by scientists.
Not a good example of the creator.

 

[D3pro]

lol ok Gary, i'll get you that info... give me a sec

 

[D3pro]

Still haven't posted any proof that a "creator" exists or ever existe,
or posted any references as to where the information that you are quoting comes from.
Key points conveniently overlooked.
The clock came from the roman calander, the clock was invented to measure the increments of time.
Roman calendar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This still isn't a perfect system, that's why we have leap years, but it is close.
Both are actually just measurements of speed.
The speed it take the earth to revolve on it's axis - 1,670 kph
The speed it take the earth to revolve around the sun - 107,825 kph
So, the clock & calander was invented by scientists.
Not a good example of the creator.

Dr. Michael Denton, in his book “Evolution: A Theory in Crisis” describes the intricate organization of nerve cells in the brain [pp. 330 - 331].

And the concept of time was not about clocks and calendars, but rather, an explanation of what we cannot grasp because we have a start and an end.

“The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books - a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects.”

- Albert Einstein | Quotes

 

[garycahill]

Now we are moving away from science to philosophy.
In a scientific sense, my last post is correct.
Given enough time to search through philosophic books/papers, I will also be able to find opposing arguements. The debate from the very first post was science vs religion.
I don't see where phiosophy even fits in other than a lack of an answer.

 

[D3pro]

I was never talking about religion lol, i made that statement already...
look, as I said

"Believe what you want, I don't want to change your opinions. If you are satisfied with the answer that life came out of random then ok, stick with it. But if your like me and look at the world and the universe for what it is, a design that was made with a purpose, then the only answer is that there is a creator..."

I don't feel like arguing today, I want people to find their own answers, I can only tell you the ones I already found that make me happy, if it doesn't work for you, then mate, start opening books. Don't be afraid to look in the unpopular places like the bible... and don't stop searching until you find your answer.

and now, I'm going to do more fun things, like feeding snakes haha

 

[garycahill]

LOL.
Still avoiding the questions.
Provide proof there is a creator, religious or otherwise.
Can't stand there & discredit science when all you have as an alternative is a feeling.

 

[sara_sabian]

How can one take science seriously, if when ever it is proven wrong it shakes it's head, covering it's ears yelling "NEVER MORE".

You keep saying that science wont change or isn't open to change.
That is the one thing you can depend on with science; change, as we discover new things the theories evolve (haha) with it.
When science is proven wrong it starts over based on the new information. Our model of creation so far is Darwin's theory of evolution, convincing evidence so far points to evolution.
If new proof (proof, not hear say and superstition) is found tomorrow that points somewhere else then the theory will change to allow that.

Genesis does not have this exception.
The Bible can not change, it is what it is, there are no new theories, no new information. If anyone is covering their ears and shaking their heads...