Exporting Australian Reptiles - A naiv point of view?

[Foreigner]

Hello Reptile Keepers in Down Under,

i am from Germany and keep Reptiles since i was 15 teen Years old (now i am 38). Many times i see bearded Dragons in our Reptile Shops and Ackie Monitors. Some Day they were different type of Colorforms in one Reptiles Shop the so called Red ackies and the Yellow ones. So i decided to buy the yellows because the Reds were quiet expensive.

After i get some more experience in Keeping those nice Monitors i learned that Acanthurus came from a large and wide Location in Australia. So i become more interested in this Monitor specimen.

At that time i only compare pics from American, Japanese und some German breeders. As you know, sometimes you see a pic and you fell in love with the animal shown - i do so and were thingking: Okay a simpsion desert Red ackie - so look for it an buy it.

Ha ha ha, quiet easy to speak out but not easy to do. When you don´t have simpson desert ackies you can´t buy them. So i wrote a lot of mails all over the Planet asking for export ability (USA Lacy Act forbits until 3rd generation breed and so on). At least a lost a lot of money (i you lose your mind in love for a specimen you are even blind to detect scammers, phishers and other betrayers).

At that point i ask myself (and now we come to the topic ;-)

When australian politians stop the export of native life Reptiles why the don´t allow breeders to export captive breed animals? In that case they resolve the smuggling problems, the wild animals stay in the wild and for some australian people they made a business.

Is that a naiv point of view? What speaks against this?

Or is it the same thing like here in Germany. Green Polititians make laws to protect the wilde but do not think about the whole story and in the end you have new problems?

Sorry for my terrible english but this is what i want to ask you, because most of you are from australia and maybe know the matters and could help me to understand?!?

Thanks for your reply

Kind Regards

Falko

 

[reptilife]

Great question Falko, and welcome to APS!

Unfortunately, I don't feel I have the experience or knowledge to really answer your questions.
BUT I will say this... I breed pedigree dogs and ship them all around the world to reputable buyers.
These dogs are for private ownership and do not end up on a 'black market'.
I have always wondered why exporting captive bred and legally recorded/licensed reptiles is illegal.
If people o/s were ALLOWED to import herps from Australia, then as you say, there would be much less insentive for poachers to collect wild-caught specimens, wrap them up in dunny-rolls and smuggle them out of the country!

I will be watching this thread with interest...

 

[Mick2530]

What are the importing exporting laws o/s in euro and america. They seem to b very relaxed as there they have a range of exotics. Were we in australia ever allowed to legally import exotics?, or legally allowed 2 export our natives o/s if no then how are so many of our natives advertised o/s so freely

 

[Bez84]

No we never imported exotics, I think we could once export as it seems americans have been breeding our reptiles longer then us.
They wont allow any imports due to the risk of spreading overseas diseases to our native reptile populations and also the risk of exotics establishing wild populations like the asian house gecko etc.

 

[cris]

I would imagine exports are banned for the same reason as imports, although exporting reptiles isnt any risk to Australia it would be hypocritical to allow one and not the other. Maybe one day in the future proper risk assessment will be done and some imports and exports may be allowed, untill then its only the unregulated black market that is responsible for importing, exporting and quaranteen of the reptile traffic in and out of Australia.

 

[aussie-albino]

Yes very good question Falco, and a better idea but I don't see it happening in a hurry. I guess the increase demand in the short term would probably increase poaching in the short term and generally the animals that are rare in the wild are ones in highest demand, so until there are much larger amounts of captive bred animals to fill a larger market. Can't see it happening anytime soon.

cheers
Scott

 

[Mick2530]

Its a Shame I do believe we have the greatest reptiles in the wild but would to love own some of the exotics. I feel if the regulations were properly enforced and the regulations were thought out properly by ppl that truly care, have experience and common sense it may one day occur. Rules and Laws only affect those who wish to abide by them.
Also can ppl catch the asian house gecko, cane toad etc and keep them without a licence relevant to the animal or they r still governed

 

[aussie-albino]

I think like most pests there is an obligation to euthanize them humanely.

cheers
Scott

 

[cris]

Also can ppl catch the asian house gecko, cane toad etc and keep them without a licence relevant to the animal or they r still governed

This will depend on state laws, im pretty sure you can keep canetoads in Qld, they were legally imported and arnt a decalred pest. Im not sure on Asian House Geckos, they arnt a declared pest(in qld) but wernt legally imported as far as i know so keeping may not be legal.

 

[Foreigner]

Hello Again,

yes the case was to prevent propagation of diseases. But isn´t that law a bit "OVERKILL"? I think the authorities just act like that cause of making such mistakes like importing the Buffo Marinus in the past and now you see what those foreign creatures can do to your wild life (there were a nice Movie about Housecats killing australian wildlife an painting artist paint a funny poster for school classes with cruel cats arround a group of feared australian native animals).

But back to the point. When some people say the request on the market for rare animals goes the way: If the market could get the rare he thant definatly wants the rarest THEN you have to make better Laws and better researchment.

What i want to say is to hold both sides (Autorities and Keepers responsible for they doings in a manageable way) <-- sounds utopic isn´t it? But for example. Everybody of you know whats the Thorny Devil Moloch Horridum is?!? This animal mainly feeds on ants. Also it is very attracted to death cause of stress. It is not a quick lizard its a hunter who waits for its pray. In my opinion we do not know enough to keep them in captivity. If you don´t have ants in your garden (i mean a lot of ants and that the whole year) i must be forbidden to keep them. Food specialists, animals from difficult climatic reagions and so on DONT HAVE TO BE KEEPT IN CAPTIVITY! Thats one law the Reptilekeeper must learn and even with terrible charges for ignoring them.

Captive Care for me, means you can build up the whole livecycle of an animal. Living, mating, egg laying, getting born, raising up, dying and back again. If the chain is broken the animal can´t be kept. You have the same with saltwaterfishs (Imperators, Puffers and so on causo of the bentic lifecycle of ther larvas (bentic means the drivt in water and don´t have to touch a thing (edge of a tank) and stay there (cause of the streaming pumps) The need to rotate in Water.

Okay back to topic. Acutaly the Price of an Varanus brevicauda came up to 2000 - 3000 Euros maybe more. The same with mtichelli, semiremex and the others. To fill the market with enough animals you have to setup large Breeding locations who do an direct exchange with nature. YES first you definatly have to caught wild animals (number has to defined) but then you can made rules

For example. In the first year of propagation 50 % of the hatched juveniles have to raised until they are more fit to survive than they were 1 Day old in wildlife. These 50 % have to be wilded out (germany auswildern) means give them back to nature (i think in some regions of australia you don´t have to set up tanks its anough to make a fence around it and build some shelter agains predators. So it will be more easier to wild them out. In the 2nd year 30% in the 3rd 20% untild 0%. Every 10 Years as a good breed you get a permission to caught some animals again to refresh the bloodlines.

Okay okay its a lot of work and maybe this could also be a matter why no one starts with. But i think this would be an exellent field of work. In a few years you would know what kind of specimen capable for keeping in captivity and what not. You know how to keep them and give nice "Instruktion Manuals" and not those short overviews made by Zoo shops just to get a fast sell (you know some shops here tell you can keep 1.2 Adult bearded dragons in an 100 Centimeter long and 50 Centimeter wide tank you to make the illusion: oh daddy they are soooooo easy to keep.

At least eaven the setup of the tank could be a part of this science <-- huh? Yes you are laughing but a friend of mine and me ones try hardly to garminate Triodia basedowii (Spinifex Gras) to make the setup of the cage more look like Australia but it never works. Today i know even it has worked i need a very very very deep tank cause the roots of the gras grow 3 Meter deep in the earth.

You must think i am a bit crazy aren´t you. A guy never was in australia makes so much thoughs about such things. I have no business like intentions but i know a lot of the reptiles from australia are very easy to keep, easy to breed and on the other hand we have a large larger BLACK and WHITE market. So why we don´t start to kill the black market and make some things better. He he cause we are in this world and not the world of alice from Wizard of Oz ;-)

Hey and when the thing with the reptiles runs then look at your yabbis such like Euastacus sulcatus and others specimen from that genus. They are also very requested.

But i think we must wait longer that thing got started.

Kind Regards

Falko

 

[syeph8]

I would imagine exports are banned for the same reason as imports, although exporting reptiles isnt any risk to Australia it would be hypocritical to allow one and not the other. Maybe one day in the future proper risk assessment will be done and some imports and exports may be allowed, untill then its only the unregulated black market that is responsible for importing, exporting and quaranteen of the reptile traffic in and out of Australia.

well put, i would also add although i have no idea of the overseas reptile market, that pure native australian reptiles would possibly fetch quite a high price overseas. if this were the case, then legalising exports may increase poaching. if the prices werent that much higher than the domestic market, then i wouldnt see too many breeders who would bother exporting to other countries. it is very common to find people who arent willing to ship even interstate.

 

[junglepython2]

Poaching would go through the roof if exports were legalised.

 

[waruikazi]

Poaching would go through the roof if exports were legalised.

Not nesecarily. Atleast on our end there would need to be a paper trail for the animals being exported, why go to the risk of poaching and smuggling when it can all be done above board.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

"Poaching would go through the roof if exports were legalised."

On what basis do you make a statement like this? Poaching of what? Many species are bred in captivity in large numbers now, here and overseas, and in many cases Australian species are cheaper overseas than they are here.

Blanket one liners like this stifle objective debate on what must, eventually, become a topic of interest to many people.

Jamie

 

[stephen]

lts all about making a tax on wildlife not about us but about the polliez filling there own pockets & we still have 2 vote 4 them or we get a $50 dollar fine(more money 4
there pockets).lts the exotics that should be licenced not the native reptiles after all we do live on there land.And in that sense thay could keep track on the exotics
that r out there in the community.

 

[REPTILIAN-KMAN]

poaching reptiles from the wild - the western Australia dept on conservation and wildlife have developed a DNA test to see wheather reptiles or birds have been captive breed or are taken from the wild, i cant explain how these is done but i watched a news episode about one and halfs week ago about there ability to do this !
The 7.30 Report - ABC
the story above is what i watched !

Wildlife authorities in Western Australia are putting unscrupulous collectors on notice that they're using a new weapon in the fight against poaching - applying the same DNA profiling techniques used in human forensics.

So far the team has secured 15 DNA results proving birds and snakes were stolen from the wild or illegally imported.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

That story was pure propaganda. They can't prove an animal was 'stolen' from the wild or illegally imported, without a sample from the parent animals. All they can tell you is that the parents of the animal aren't those you say they are. So if you say an animal was captive bred by Bill Smith, from a pair he owns, they can take DNA from those animals and perhaps reasonably expect to be able to prove provenance. In a case where there is no match, they CANNOT say conclusively that the animal was taken from the wild or imported, simply that it didn't come from where you said it did.

Jamie.

 

[REPTILIAN-KMAN]

On what basis do you make a statement like this? - are you upto date with the latest DNA profiling !

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Well, yes. You have to have some comparative material to be able to say one way or the other where an animal was bred. Looking at a single animal without reference to others won't tell you a single thing about its provenance. How could it?

I should also point out that the only reasonably comprehensive DNA database they currently have is related their long-term sampling of all captive black cockatoos, and some wild individuals. I have no problem with this - a high-value (especially overseas), slow breeding group of birds that remains in high demand on overseas markets precisely because they are slow breeding. The picture is not the same for most species of reptiles - they breed freely, they have large clutches, and many of them are in oversupply overseas, just as they are now here.

Jamie

 

[Elapidae1]

Got to agree with Jamie they would have to had taken DNA from every single reptile in captivity for it to be used properly. I would also think that if someone bought an animal from a dealer who had had there animals DNA taken and then replaced it with an animal that hadn't and was caught out the DEC would have to prove, The animal was procured illegally by the new owner in which they would say it must have been because DNA doesn't match and then they would have to prove the seller didn't try to get away with selling an illegal animal; in the belief they would never be tested down the track.