JasonL
Almost Legendary
an extremist
Fishing is cruel ??
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an extremist
grivai
New Member
Someone who enjoys fishing but stumbled across this and got sick of reading so many of the moronic responses...
Though i started the thread, i will presume that you arent refering to me.
In answer to the question of where did the topic come from is,
This isnt a new topic by any means, it resurfaces every so often. The most recent cause for discussion has arisen due to Sweden has banned fishing without the intention to keep the fish. i.e. in effect banned sports fishing.
There are a couple of other places that have done the same, and subsequently interest groups of varying types will therefore pick up the ball.
Grivai - well articulated response / arguement, thanks for the contribution.
Cheers
DanTheMan
Very Well-Known Member
Nothing wrong with it, how can it be cruel when it's completely natural? And it's enjoyable, I catch & release, but keep a few for a feed, I dont eat it, but the family does, I do on the odd occasion. Once again, its natural! Humans are hunters & gatherer's just like every other omnivore in this world, so why not do it and enjoy it? Sport fishing is fine, if they keep them or release them, if there's going to be any banning, it should just be catch & release sports fish
DanTheMan
Very Well-Known Member
Oh by the way, for the people that voted for fishing for pest species only, you can't chose which species of fish is going to take your hook, so either way, fish get a little wound from the hooks in there mouths, they either die and get eaten by us, or heal perfectly if released.
the.badger
Well-Known Member
Well, I can't vote in this poll because there isn't an option that suits my opinion.
I am a tofu-muncher, I don't eat meat, eggs, fish or dairy, or anything made with animal products (the only strictly non-vegan food I eat are the eggs that my ducks lay). I also try to eat only organic fruit and vegies so as to minimise the negative effects on animals due to fertilisers etc, although this is not always possible.
I do this because I don't like animals to suffer unnecissarily. There's plenty of evidence to support the theory that eating animal products is not good (let alone necessary) for human health or environmental health.
For the record, I do not feed my snakes or other pets carrots. I don't think it's right to impose and enforce my personal choices onto others, and although I will express my opinions when asked in the hope that others will see the sense in it, I would never force an animal or person in my care to eat as I do, except in the case that it would not be detrimental to their health AND they knowingly choose to do so (which, of course, is not the case with animals).
Before I go into detail I should mention that I do not support commercial fishing or trawling, I do not support fishing for sport, but although I don't agree with it personally, I'm not against individuals fishing for food to feed themselves or their families, so long as it is done so in a responsible manner, although I don't like line fishing at all for environmental reasons.
I think the argument that fishing is not cruel is baseless. In my opinion it's pretty obvious that killing an animal, or causing it pain or stress, for no good reason (and I don't believe that fishing for food or fun is a good reason) is cruel. Certainly there are people who try to minimise the cruelty involved in this passtime, but I think killing an animal for human purposes, even if you do it humanely, is intrisically selfish and cruel.
I think the argument that 'we should be able to fish because it's natural for humans to do so' is ridiculous, as the way we all live in the 21st century is not 'natural' in the sense that is inferred in that statement.
I think the argument that 'humans have been fishing for food for centuries, so we should continue to do so' completely daft, as clearly we are no longer living as we did in previous centuries, and no longer need to fish (or eat any animal products, for that matter) for survival. The ocean is a vast resource, but it is no longer big enough to support the current and future human population of the globe.
I think fishing for sport or to 'have a look at the fish' is cruel and unnecissary. What ever happened to snorkelling? Submerging yourself in a marine environment is a far more rewarding way to check out marine life than sitting on a boat and dangling a bit of string overboard.
I think the arguement that 'fish and marine animals eat other fish, so we should too' is nothing less than retarded. Unlike marine life, eating fish is not a necessary part of our diet and we are able to choose whether or not to do so.
The argument that 'God put fish there for a reason (ie. for us to eat)'.... well. What can I even say about that?? I'm just going to leave that one alone I think.
I think anyone who argues that 'fish are used to pain, getting hooked and thrown back in is a good day for a fish' is pretty small-minded and selfish. Really, a good day for a fish would be to be left alone to go about its life. And there are a lot of humans out there who are used to pain, and live with it on a daily basis. They are treated with compassion and often administered pain-killers to help ease their suffering, they are not hooked in the face for a bit of Sunday fun without a second thought.
And to everyone who has hidden behind patriotism, arguing that fishing is part of the Australian way of life and is a favourite national passtime and therefore should be allowed to continue, well I don't even know where to start with you lot, but I could go on about this for hours. Yes, fishing is popular in Australia, as are many marine activities, and this is largely to do with the fact that we are an island nation and blessed with beautiful beaches and a temperate climate. As the anthem says "Our land is gurt by sea". I don't recall singing "Our land abounds with natures gifts of beauty rich and rare, let's all go out and interfere with these wonders, hook them in the face for a thrill, and kill and eat them if we feel like it". Just because something is popular in a certain country, and we're used to it and generally accept it as a normal occurence, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Whaling is popular in Japan, and is part of Japan's national history (a history, I might add, that is a lot older than the history of white Australia) but I bet most of you don't agree with whaling - or if you do, I'm guessing you think it should be limited, controlled and monitored. Dancing bears are popular in Russia, and part of its history, but none of you would deny that causing a bear suffering for human entertainment is nothing less than disgraceful. And yet this stuff doesn't seem to translate to the Australian practices of fishing for entertainment or food which are, in principle, exactly the same as the two examples above. Why not? I don't see the difference.
Anyway, on the whole I think Australia is full of patriots with not a whole lot to be patriotic about. White Australia doesn't have a rich cultural history, and as far as I was aware, drinking beer, not fishing, was our favourite national passtime. Seriously though, all of the activities we adopt as 'part of our culture' like football, barbeques and fishing revolve around their largely social aspects, the majority of people who enjoy these passtimes do so with the aid of a full esky. So if you're playing the patriotism card, well, in my experience you're probably just a drunkard in thongs. You'll forgive me if I don't take your arguments on board.
Having said all that, I realise it's pretty unlikely that the entire globe, or even the nation, will become vegan in my lifetime, and I don't begrudge everyone for that, I know it's hard to break away from the norm, escpecially in our highly commercialised world. I don't have a problem with individuals fishing for food, although I could not do it myself, as long as it's done responsibly and preferably using the spearfishing method.
I am a tofu-muncher, I don't eat meat, eggs, fish or dairy, or anything made with animal products (the only strictly non-vegan food I eat are the eggs that my ducks lay). I also try to eat only organic fruit and vegies so as to minimise the negative effects on animals due to fertilisers etc, although this is not always possible.
I do this because I don't like animals to suffer unnecissarily. There's plenty of evidence to support the theory that eating animal products is not good (let alone necessary) for human health or environmental health.
For the record, I do not feed my snakes or other pets carrots. I don't think it's right to impose and enforce my personal choices onto others, and although I will express my opinions when asked in the hope that others will see the sense in it, I would never force an animal or person in my care to eat as I do, except in the case that it would not be detrimental to their health AND they knowingly choose to do so (which, of course, is not the case with animals).
Before I go into detail I should mention that I do not support commercial fishing or trawling, I do not support fishing for sport, but although I don't agree with it personally, I'm not against individuals fishing for food to feed themselves or their families, so long as it is done so in a responsible manner, although I don't like line fishing at all for environmental reasons.
I think the argument that fishing is not cruel is baseless. In my opinion it's pretty obvious that killing an animal, or causing it pain or stress, for no good reason (and I don't believe that fishing for food or fun is a good reason) is cruel. Certainly there are people who try to minimise the cruelty involved in this passtime, but I think killing an animal for human purposes, even if you do it humanely, is intrisically selfish and cruel.
I think the argument that 'we should be able to fish because it's natural for humans to do so' is ridiculous, as the way we all live in the 21st century is not 'natural' in the sense that is inferred in that statement.
I think the argument that 'humans have been fishing for food for centuries, so we should continue to do so' completely daft, as clearly we are no longer living as we did in previous centuries, and no longer need to fish (or eat any animal products, for that matter) for survival. The ocean is a vast resource, but it is no longer big enough to support the current and future human population of the globe.
I think fishing for sport or to 'have a look at the fish' is cruel and unnecissary. What ever happened to snorkelling? Submerging yourself in a marine environment is a far more rewarding way to check out marine life than sitting on a boat and dangling a bit of string overboard.
I think the arguement that 'fish and marine animals eat other fish, so we should too' is nothing less than retarded. Unlike marine life, eating fish is not a necessary part of our diet and we are able to choose whether or not to do so.
The argument that 'God put fish there for a reason (ie. for us to eat)'.... well. What can I even say about that?? I'm just going to leave that one alone I think.
I think anyone who argues that 'fish are used to pain, getting hooked and thrown back in is a good day for a fish' is pretty small-minded and selfish. Really, a good day for a fish would be to be left alone to go about its life. And there are a lot of humans out there who are used to pain, and live with it on a daily basis. They are treated with compassion and often administered pain-killers to help ease their suffering, they are not hooked in the face for a bit of Sunday fun without a second thought.
And to everyone who has hidden behind patriotism, arguing that fishing is part of the Australian way of life and is a favourite national passtime and therefore should be allowed to continue, well I don't even know where to start with you lot, but I could go on about this for hours. Yes, fishing is popular in Australia, as are many marine activities, and this is largely to do with the fact that we are an island nation and blessed with beautiful beaches and a temperate climate. As the anthem says "Our land is gurt by sea". I don't recall singing "Our land abounds with natures gifts of beauty rich and rare, let's all go out and interfere with these wonders, hook them in the face for a thrill, and kill and eat them if we feel like it". Just because something is popular in a certain country, and we're used to it and generally accept it as a normal occurence, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Whaling is popular in Japan, and is part of Japan's national history (a history, I might add, that is a lot older than the history of white Australia) but I bet most of you don't agree with whaling - or if you do, I'm guessing you think it should be limited, controlled and monitored. Dancing bears are popular in Russia, and part of its history, but none of you would deny that causing a bear suffering for human entertainment is nothing less than disgraceful. And yet this stuff doesn't seem to translate to the Australian practices of fishing for entertainment or food which are, in principle, exactly the same as the two examples above. Why not? I don't see the difference.
Anyway, on the whole I think Australia is full of patriots with not a whole lot to be patriotic about. White Australia doesn't have a rich cultural history, and as far as I was aware, drinking beer, not fishing, was our favourite national passtime. Seriously though, all of the activities we adopt as 'part of our culture' like football, barbeques and fishing revolve around their largely social aspects, the majority of people who enjoy these passtimes do so with the aid of a full esky. So if you're playing the patriotism card, well, in my experience you're probably just a drunkard in thongs. You'll forgive me if I don't take your arguments on board.
Having said all that, I realise it's pretty unlikely that the entire globe, or even the nation, will become vegan in my lifetime, and I don't begrudge everyone for that, I know it's hard to break away from the norm, escpecially in our highly commercialised world. I don't have a problem with individuals fishing for food, although I could not do it myself, as long as it's done responsibly and preferably using the spearfishing method.
Typical deluded vegan nonsense. Can you show me any real evidence at an omnivorous diet is in anyway harmful? Humans are not a vegetarian animal, unless they are following completely unnatural ethics.
Australia has plenty to be patriotic about, nice tasting wildlife for a start.
Australia has plenty to be patriotic about, nice tasting wildlife for a start.
P
-Peter
Guest
Ive rigged up a big spot light on the truck and we are going jigging for cows later tonight.
JasonL
Almost Legendary
It's a good day for the fish, but a better day for the fisherman.......
Colin
morelia
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what about jesus and the loaves and the fishes!!!! I dont recall any bible stories about loaves and tofu
thats probablly because jesus hated tofu :lol:
carpetmuncher
Active Member
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are you suggesting that the practice you describe is allowed and should be banned? for the reason of being cruel, that act is already illegal.
Hooglabah
Very Well-Known Member
come on guys im a fisherman fishing is cruel but so is life and whether a fish gets hooked or torn apart by a bigger fish its probably going to have a very stressful last few moments (and probably painful too) the topic is pointless as fishing will never be banned except maybe comercial fishing.... hmmm that means more fish for me to catch yay.
either ither the greenies have a fair point y put an animal through the needless suffering, the only reasons i can come up with is its fun and they taste good (so is hunting but thats alot quicker than fishing... bang dead and if this isnt the case then you should go back to the range and practice on paper targets till you can shoot a hole the size of a 20cent peice. i cant do that yet so i dont hunt yet.)
however while the greenies have a point so do the fishermen\women fishing is fun and they do taste good and no force on earth is going to stop us from fishing ban it and we'll do it illeagaly make marien sanctuaries and people will poach its the simple.
with that in mind a greenie response is pretty predictable "your causeing and animal pain just because its fun grrr ragh complian" how would you feel if evidance came out to prove (hypothetically) that vegitable and plant are actually sentient and felt pain what would u do then, or if your a movie buff and you found out just how damageing to the environment 1 projector is i could tell you if u like im sitting inbetween 3 of them. im a projectionist and i can tell you right now going to the movies is probably one of the most enviromentaly damageing thing that we take for granted that i can think of.
for a starter the projectors themselfs run 100,000 wat bulbs called xenon lamps they suck electricity and produce a highly toxic vapor wich is pumped through exaghust fans into the atmophere then you have your film wich is chemically treated with arsnic metho and a few other chemicals i dont know how to spell or pronounce, the film itself is made from plant and animal products and when a film finishes its time in the cinema they cut it up with an axe and throw it in rubbishdumps thats just off the top of my head i could get you a three page list if u like.
there are millions of things every day that we do that screw with nature or harm wild life in somway we just dont care because if we did our nice comfortable life style would go out the window.
so befor any greenie preaches at me or my fellow hunter gathers think about what you do that effects the environment atleast we arent hypocrits, how many greenies drive or catch a bus or train you have legs use em or ride a bike what about tv do you watch it, do you use electircity do you cook your meals ect ect. all of these thing negitively affect the environment many many times more than fishing or hunting, and through that harm animals and are in themselfs acts of animal cruelty, copper mineing for cables destroys environment and all the big rig movement is surely going to harm some animals silcone chips for computers and ty sets produce chokeing gasses when constucted that would burn the lungs of any human who breathes it at least we have biohazd suits and respirators birds dont have that choice. so theres my rant its full of spelling and gramatical errors i know and is kinda obscure but that the way my mind works as far as im concerned the only person who can tell me im a horrible person for fishing or hunting and have a holier that thou attitude about it is sobody who lives entierly off the land and doesnt use any modern tech at all. however they probably wouldnt do that because they wouldnt have time to waste on it as they are trying to survive.
so there not saying im right or your wrong but at least admit that your just as bad in differant ways.
either ither the greenies have a fair point y put an animal through the needless suffering, the only reasons i can come up with is its fun and they taste good (so is hunting but thats alot quicker than fishing... bang dead and if this isnt the case then you should go back to the range and practice on paper targets till you can shoot a hole the size of a 20cent peice. i cant do that yet so i dont hunt yet.)
however while the greenies have a point so do the fishermen\women fishing is fun and they do taste good and no force on earth is going to stop us from fishing ban it and we'll do it illeagaly make marien sanctuaries and people will poach its the simple.
with that in mind a greenie response is pretty predictable "your causeing and animal pain just because its fun grrr ragh complian" how would you feel if evidance came out to prove (hypothetically) that vegitable and plant are actually sentient and felt pain what would u do then, or if your a movie buff and you found out just how damageing to the environment 1 projector is i could tell you if u like im sitting inbetween 3 of them. im a projectionist and i can tell you right now going to the movies is probably one of the most enviromentaly damageing thing that we take for granted that i can think of.
for a starter the projectors themselfs run 100,000 wat bulbs called xenon lamps they suck electricity and produce a highly toxic vapor wich is pumped through exaghust fans into the atmophere then you have your film wich is chemically treated with arsnic metho and a few other chemicals i dont know how to spell or pronounce, the film itself is made from plant and animal products and when a film finishes its time in the cinema they cut it up with an axe and throw it in rubbishdumps thats just off the top of my head i could get you a three page list if u like.
there are millions of things every day that we do that screw with nature or harm wild life in somway we just dont care because if we did our nice comfortable life style would go out the window.
so befor any greenie preaches at me or my fellow hunter gathers think about what you do that effects the environment atleast we arent hypocrits, how many greenies drive or catch a bus or train you have legs use em or ride a bike what about tv do you watch it, do you use electircity do you cook your meals ect ect. all of these thing negitively affect the environment many many times more than fishing or hunting, and through that harm animals and are in themselfs acts of animal cruelty, copper mineing for cables destroys environment and all the big rig movement is surely going to harm some animals silcone chips for computers and ty sets produce chokeing gasses when constucted that would burn the lungs of any human who breathes it at least we have biohazd suits and respirators birds dont have that choice. so theres my rant its full of spelling and gramatical errors i know and is kinda obscure but that the way my mind works as far as im concerned the only person who can tell me im a horrible person for fishing or hunting and have a holier that thou attitude about it is sobody who lives entierly off the land and doesnt use any modern tech at all. however they probably wouldnt do that because they wouldnt have time to waste on it as they are trying to survive.
so there not saying im right or your wrong but at least admit that your just as bad in differant ways.
the.badger
Well-Known Member
Humans are herbivores. I'm not going to hijack this thread with "Go Vegan" preaching, but have a look at the info below, which compares the anatomy of carnivores, omnivores, herbivores, and humans. If you care to read more on the topic I can point you in the right direction.
Facial Muscles
Carnivore: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
Omnivore: Reduced
Herbivore: Well developed
Human: Well developed
Jaw Motion
Carnivore: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
Omnivore: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
Herbivore: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Human: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Teeth (Incisors)
Carnivore: Short and pointed
Omnivore: Short and pointed
Herbivore: Broad, flattened, and spade-shaped
Human: Broad, flattened, and spade-shaped
Teeth (Canines)
Carnivore: Long, sharp, and curved
Omnivore: Long, sharp, and curved
Herbivore: Dull and short or long (for defense) or none
Human: Short and blunted
Teeth (Molars)
Carnivore: Sharp, jagged, and blade-shaped
Omnivore: Sharp blades and/or flattened
Herbivore: Flattened with cusps vs. complex surface
Human: Flattened with nodular cusps
Chewing
Carnivore: None; swallows food whole
Omnivore: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
Herbivore: Extensive chewing necessary
Human: Extensive chewing necessary
Saliva
Carnivore: No digestive enzymes
Omnivore: No digestive enzymes
Herbivore: Carbohydrate-digesting enzymes
Human: Carbohydrate-digesting enzymes
Stomach Acidity
Carnivore: Less than or equal to pH of 1 with food in stomach
Omnivore: Less than or equal to pH of 1 with food in stomach
Herbivore: pH of 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Human: pH of 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Length of Small Intestine
Carnivore: 3 to 6 times body length
Omnivore: 4 to 6 times body length
Herbivore: 10 to more than 12 times body length
Human: 10 to 11 times body length
Nails
Carnivore: Sharp claws
Omnivore: Sharp claws
Herbivore: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
Human: Flattened nails
Taken from http://www.goveg.com/naturalhumandiet_physiology.asp
funcouple
Very Well-Known Member
your kidding. this has to be a gee up. if its not, are you really serious. maybe we should all just stop breathing
:lol: back to primary school for you, perhaps try eating more meat, you may be lacking essential nutrients to allow proper brain function. Not eating animals is a cultural retardation, unless it is required for medical reasons(if that is possible?).
ihaveherps
Well-Known Member
badger, I didnt see anything about number of stomachs, and apedics size in relation to rest of digestive tract when comparing herbivores, omnivores and carnivores, since you seem to be the data master how about you throw that info up. While your at it, dig up some info on brain function and basic intelligence.
fraser888
Well-Known Member
Nothing wrong with fishing?
mattmc
Well-Known Member
Excuse my French but I think this is all a load of Bull.
That Is all.
Matt =)
That Is all.
Matt =)
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I fell asleep after "tofu muncher" sorry, ill read the rest when i wake up..
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/20/2340735.htm
They may not throw them back in alive, but shark finning is well and truely still happening.
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