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Help, green in urate/feces

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Iguana

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IMG_2134.jpg My diamond left this for me this afternoon, I'm worried about the amount of green in it, especially the mushy consistency. I haven't seen any changes in behavior and he's eating well, although I recently changed my rat supplier, could a bad rat do this? I've heard some bad things about green in feces :S
 

Pauls_Pythons

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It's common to get some green tinge in there from time to time particularly during the cooler months.
Having said that, bright green in large amounts is often a sign of some potentially serious issues.
If the colour on my screen is a good representation of what you are seeing I wouldn't be worried.

Do you winter your diamond?
 

Iguana

Well-Known Member
It's common to get some green tinge in there from time to time particularly during the cooler months.
Having said that, bright green in large amounts is often a sign of some potentially serious issues.
If the colour on my screen is a good representation of what you are seeing I wouldn't be worried.

Do you winter your diamond?

the picture is pretty accurate, it's a very muted green, it's the amount that is concerning :S. I'm starting to cool him a little, but the temps are raised slightly after feeding before reverting, however he won't be brumated. What kind of serious issues are you thinking of? Are there other signs I should look for?
 

Pauls_Pythons

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Bright green slime in the urates, almost luminous can be an indication of liver problems.
Sometimes seen in animals like BHP's that are fed a high fat diet when they are not designed to do so.
 

Iguana

Well-Known Member
Bright green slime in the urates, almost luminous can be an indication of liver problems.
Sometimes seen in animals like BHP's that are fed a high fat diet when they are not designed to do so.

Yeah i've heard that a fair bit with BHP's and Woma's, Would an all rat diet be considered fatty?
 

Pauls_Pythons

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Many rats have a high fat content as many commercial breeders want to grown them on quickly.
Diamonds I believe fair better when they are wintered and given a rest from feeding. They also seem to do better when fed with less frequency.
Mine will only have between 10-15 feeds a year.
Overfeeding of captive snakes is a common problem that leads to health issues though I'm not saying that is what is going on here.
 

Iguana

Well-Known Member
Many rats have a high fat content as many commercial breeders want to grown them on quickly.
Diamonds I believe fair better when they are wintered and given a rest from feeding. They also seem to do better when fed with less frequency.
Mine will only have between 10-15 feeds a year.
Overfeeding of captive snakes is a common problem that leads to health issues though I'm not saying that is what is going on here.

Thanks for the info, I'll try to slow down his feeding during the cooler months and see if it helps.
 

Wokka

Well-Known Member
Many rats have a high fat content as many commercial breeders want to grown them on quickly.
Are you suggesting that rats grown quickly are more likely to be high fat content as compared to rats grown slowly? I would have thought that what rats are fed, and more importantly the maturity of the rats, is more likely to influence fat content rather than their rate of growth. Some rat breeders feed dog food which is generally higher fat content than properly prepared rodent food.
 

Pauls_Pythons

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Point taken Wokka but whatever the cause the end result is a food product with a high fat content. And I'm not saying all commercial breeders do this but there are some around & it's not easy for the buyer to know.
Those of us who buy in bulk use places we trust like yours but owners of single animals might tend to purchase from less reputable supply chains.
The main point I'm trying to get accross to this young lady is that overfeeding does not have a great end result for the animal. Diamonds do better kept lean & feeding adults through winter is not something I think will have any beneficial effect on the animal.
 

andynic07

Very Well-Known Member
A slight tinge like that is very common whilst starting to cool. My Python that had liver cancer had very bright green and in larger amounts.
 

Wokka

Well-Known Member
I am not sure that fat is bad for snakes, apart from numerous anecdotal comments I have seen. Also I don't know if feeding fat food items translates to making fat snakes.Unfortunately there is a real lack of information on the nutritive requirements for snakes and how they metabolise food, with most comments including my own, only based upon observation, extrapolation and anecdotal opinion. There is no doubt that captive snakes incur less exercise, which I think is the main contributor to captive snake physique, along with the amount of food captive snakes receive relative to wild ones..
 

Pauls_Pythons

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Feeding BHP's a high fat diet, (rodents instead of reptiles) increases the risk of fatty liver disease.
Is it likely that only reptile eating pythons are likely to suffer with this when they are fed a high fat diet with restricted exercise?

There are plenty of references to fatty liver disease, the causes & outcomes on line with many of these coming from reputable sources. (Lizards in captivity can suffer the same issue). Many suggest the cause can be associated to prolonged periods of anorexia which leads to fat being released from the animals store to be processed for energy......(This is what leads to the pale green urates we see through the cooling season).
Data doesn't suggest 100% that the cause is a fatty diet but if the animal has a high fat store this is surely a contributing factor. High fat store is going to be affected by many things some of which you mention....lack of exercise & being overfed. Does it not make sense that a high fat diet will impact this situation? It certainly does to me.
I'm quite happy to agree to disagree on this but I have seen enough evidence to have me convinced.
 

Wokka

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Paul, i am not arguing one way or the other but rather posing the question. I wonder if a BHP fed say 4 of 100 gram rats each fortnight would be as fat as one fed 1 of 400gram rats each fortnight. I believe the 100 gram rats would be lean compared to a single 400 gram rat. Taking it further what is the difference in fat content between 400 grams of rat and 400 grams of reptile? Are reptiles leaner than rats on average? I think it is likely that a period of anorexia is beneficial to adult snakes as it gives some of their organs "time off".
 
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Pauls_Pythons

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You are absolutely correct.
This is typically how BHP owners behave. Smaller food items but multiple quantities. It appears the leaner animals are easier to digest & as you suggest are leaner. Most BHP breeders will not use anything over around 200-250g and generally a tad smaller.
A well known BHP breeder from the US who frequents this site has suggested that feeding large rats to BHP's will make them useless as breeding stock as they rarely produce eggs & almost never viable eggs. It appears once the excess fat gets into them it is almost impossible to get rid of it. (Reminds me of the guy who ate nothing but maccas for 30 days.

Will send youa link though you will have probably seen this......its from a place in the US and gives nutritional info on various food items. (Not sure if I can post it on here without getting booted)
 

Wokka

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Post away. I think it has been on before and this is the 'new aps..... keen to educate and spread information.
 

Pauls_Pythons

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Trusted Seller
http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

Its a good source of information but doesn't give everything we would like to know. As you said earlier there is a huge impact on the fat content of the feeder animal from its own diet. Fed good quality food & grown at a normal rate I have no doubt adult commercial rats can be reasonably lean. The evidence suggests that larger rats have a higher fat content. Most keepers prefer to feed 1 larger food item than several small ones which compounds the problem.
If this is not allowed Stuart just delete the comment.
 
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