ID please :)

Discussion in 'Reptile and Amphibian Identification' started by harlemrain, Jun 17, 2013.

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  1. ronhalling

    ronhalling Subscriber Subscriber

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    But Harls as i just said to Norm there is still the pures here as well as the Intergrades, "and" as Andrew the breeder said when we bought Cinaman off him all he breeds are Coastals, everything he has has been line bred for the last 25 years, "BUT" it is always going to be a point of contention when it come down to Coastals that carry the Port Mac name 50% will say pure Port Mac Coastal and 40% will say Intergrade and the other 10% will sit on the fence. :) .......................................Ron
     
  2. Ramsayi

    Ramsayi Very Well-Known Member APS Veteran

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    You sure you get pure coastals,pure Diamond as well as intergrades around Port Macquarie?
     
  3. harlemrain

    harlemrain Well-Known Member

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    Since I won't be breeding him I don't mind what the "technicalities" of his breed are lol.

    I'm just happy that I can look up a species and find him, as when I looked up coastals I couldn't find one that even looked remotely like my boy ;) intergrade, pure breed whichever you like to call it I think I'll just go with port mac python as he looks a hell of a lot more like those then coastals
     
  4. ronhalling

    ronhalling Subscriber Subscriber

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    As sure as i can be without DNA analysis :) ..............................Ron
     
  5. harlemrain

    harlemrain Well-Known Member

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    Another question, I've just checked all my license records, should I worry about getting them changed? There is an option when lodging a new reptile for Morelia Spilota Unknown - Carpet/Diamond Python Sub Species Unknown.

    Does anyone know how/if I should get this changed? I usually email them with change of address etc, just the same here?
     
  6. Ramsayi

    Ramsayi Very Well-Known Member APS Veteran

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    Either that or the diamonds and coastals are there on holidays visiting their relos :)
     
  7. ronhalling

    ronhalling Subscriber Subscriber

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    I reckon just leave it as is Harls, noone is going to question it, mine is recorded as "Morelia Spilota McDowelli" and until proven otherwise that is how it shall remain, and @ "Ramsayi" i do realise this is the intergrade zone IE where the territory for coastals overlaps the territory for diamonds (for those who don't know) but that does not mean there are no pure diamonds or pure coastals here. :) ....................................Ron
     
  8. andynic07

    andynic07 Very Well-Known Member

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    I would think that your statement there would say it all Ron , "intergrade zone where the territory for coastal's overlaps the territory for diamonds". The intergrade zone isn't the area where only intergrades live and that is why there is such debates like whether an intergrade is actually a natural cross between the two sub species or it's own sub species.
     
  9. Ramsayi

    Ramsayi Very Well-Known Member APS Veteran

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    Last edited: Jun 17, 2013
  10. ronhalling

    ronhalling Subscriber Subscriber

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    Thank you Andy for pointing out so eloquently what i was trying to get across, so many people think str8 away when you say intergrade you mean coastal diamond cross, i am sure a learned person such as Ramsayi was not meaning that, but i was not sure if harlemrain realised what was meant by an intergrade. As far as being a sub-species...... well that argument is going to go on for infinitum until some researcher can come up with the coin to go full tilt down to DNA level to either confirm or deny it's existence, until then it is going to be an us V them situation on whether pure, X or intergrade :) ...............................Ron
     
  11. Norm

    Norm Guest

    I think what you've got is intergrades that have more features of either a diamond or coastal. I really don't believe that there are pure diamonds and coastals in the port Macquarie area that have never bred with anything other than their own kind. Just my opinion.
     
  12. andynic07

    andynic07 Very Well-Known Member

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    There would be nothing to discuss over a few scotches if all the little things like that was solved.
     
  13. Skeptic

    Skeptic Well-Known Member

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    For what it's worth I've never seen anything I would call a Coastal or a Diamond around here and I wouldn't really expect to. Plenty of intergrades though.
     
  14. ronhalling

    ronhalling Subscriber Subscriber

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    We have done plenty of herping and camping in the Cairncross State Forest on the other side of Tower Trail and seen upwards of 20 coastals in there that have absolutely no evidence of Diamond in them, meaning no rosettes, smaller head and a more lined pattern than a blotchy one and conversely have seen diamonds in the everglades rainforest area at shelly beach that look every bit as pure as the gosford locale black and whites with distinct rosettes and the large diamond head. Why does an invisible line on the map have to deffinatively describe all snakes from that area as in the progress of being something else, if according to the range of typical pythons coastals are from Coffs Harbour (which is where harlemrain got her coastal) to Newcastle and diamonds are from Newcastle to the Victorian border would that not make the "Intergrade Zone" Newcastle to Gosford??. If you look at Harlemrain's coastal from Coffs Harbour and mine from Kempsey they look almost identical (except hers is 1 year old and mine is 6 so the pattern and color are not as condensed on mine. Just more food for thought, I am not trying to be a smarty or be arguementitive and i am sorry to harlemrain for hijacking her thread, but i am very passionate about this intergrade debate that has been going on for quite a number of years, I respect Skeptic and his opinion and i am not going to be stupid enough to say i know more than many of the learned people here especially Norm Andy and Skeptic "but" i cannot lay down and say just because a line on the map says this is where coastals are turning into diamonds and diamonds are turning into coastals that there are those that are not. :) .......................................Ron
     
  15. RedFox

    RedFox Very Well-Known Member

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    Port Macquarie sounds like it could be an interesting place to go herping. Ron would you mind posting some pics of your coastal?

    OP if you could find the breeders details it could be interesting to find out the locality/localities of the parents if they are known.
     
  16. harlemrain

    harlemrain Well-Known Member

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    About a month ago I saw (as far as I could tell) a coastal on grant st of all places, just up from the stop sign crawling across the street and down towards the houses there. Stopped and waited for him to get off the road safely as I am nowhere near experienced enough to go handling in the wild lol and was on my way. That's the only one I've seen at Port in the wild, but didn't look anything like my little guy so I'm pretty sure it was a coastal but you never know, could have something else thrown in there as well :)
     
  17. Skeptic

    Skeptic Well-Known Member

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    I'm certainly no expert on the subject Ron and couldn't say definitively that there are no pure Diamonds or Coastals in the area. I would say that I highly doubt it though given that we are a good couple of hundred kilometers either side of the cut off zone for both and slap bang in the middle of the intergrade zone.

    That being said there is a lot of variation in our carpets around here.
     
  18. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 Guest

    What clearly adds confusion to discussions such as this is the incorrect use of the two term “hybrid” and “intergrade”. While the meanings of each do overlap the terms should not be viewed as simply interchangeable.

    Intergrade, when applied to Morelia pythons, is a naturally occurring phenomenon. It applies to any individual that a naturally occurring form that is intermediate to two separate taxonomically recognised forms. It is most commonly applied to where the distributions of the two subspecies, Morelia spilota spilota (Diamond Python) and Morelia spilota variegata* CORRECTION: Should read M. s. mcdowelli (Coastal Carpet Python) physically overlap and there natural inter-breeding of the two sub-species. As a natural consequence of the overlap of distributions combined with the mobility of these animals, in moving from the end of the pure distribution of one subspecies to the beginning of the pure distribution of the other, the animals will be found to merge gradually, one with another, through a continuous series of intermediate forms from one subspecies to the other. The distinctions will range from the subtlest of differences to full-blown middle of the road between the two.

    Bear in mind that these subspecies originated from a common ancestor and have a lot of genes in common.Given the gradation that occurs with intergrades between subspecies it is meaningless to attempt to ascribe them to categories – be it subspecies, race, form or whatever.


    A hybrid is an offspring of two animals or plants of different races, breeds, varieties, species, or genera. Most hybrids are produced through human intervention. You could describe intergrades as “natural hybrids”. The issue I have with that is that in nature, most intergrades will breed with animals that are similar to themselves and it is only over distance that a larger variation occurs. Basically, I believe “hybrid” should be reserved for human manipulation of breeding and therefore maintain a distinction between it and intergrades.

    I hope you don’t mind me sharing my thoughts.
    Blue
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2013
  19. RedFox

    RedFox Very Well-Known Member

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    I read on a thread a few days ago, a snake relocater from gosford???, posted that escaped coastals have being mixing with the local diamonds affecting the purity of the wild population. Could port Mac have similar sort of thing happening to 'muddy' the pure localities, making it even more difficult to determine intergrades from diamonds and coastals.

    Oh and what ever happened to just calling them all port mac carpets?
     
  20. Norm

    Norm Guest

    Ron I'm no "expert" on the matter, just trying to learn as much as I can the same as you. I'm sorry but I just can't believe there are pure wild coastals and diamonds smack bang in the middle of the intergrade zone. I believe what your seeing is intergrades with either heavy diamond or coastal influence.
    I'm the first to admit I haven't done a lot of herping so my first hand knowledge of wild animals isn't strong but I've taken a lot of notice of people on here who have and taking all I have learnt into consideration I believe there are no pure diamond or coastal carpet pythons in the port Macquarie area.
    Harlemrain, I may have missed something, were you told by the breeder your snake is from Coffs Harbour area?
     
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