Injured wild-caught Pale-head- plz help.

[Colletts]

Why are you still even considering euthanasia. People on this site are far too quick to recommend euthanasing an animal. Animals learn to survive in the wild with horrendous injuries. Release it.

A keeper on this site has an Olive that had a badly broken jaw. Some quiet time and no food for a while and the animal recovered. It has a permanent smile on tis face but it is a live and well.

W T F is all this "if i have to euthanse" stuff? I'm also surprised the vet hadn't recommended cortisone to reduce any swelling in the animal.

I am not considering it just yet, please read my posts properly. I have been talking about euth IN CASE the wounds are SO bad that the animal would NOT be able to eat and survive in the wild. And i wont just go by my own judgement, i will post it's progress up on here, ask others opinions, talk to vets and then make a decision. The snake is doing fine right now and i am following my vets advice which is: 1. give the wound/s time to heal enough for them to be looked at without them bleeding 2. Baytril injections daily 3. check it in a couple of days (which is tomorrow) to see if the damage is going to stop the animal from eating and living normally- i will send her photo's which she will send away.

The discussions about euth are not directed only at this animal. I am collecting advice from people for any other future animals that i may get in, because in the past i have always used the fridge/freezer method and have now just decided that it may not be the way to go.

If you would have read my posts i have stated that the swelling has all but gone and that the vet would not treat the animal. I live out of town and when i rang she said not to worry about coming in as she wouldn't and couldn't see to it. I have Baytril at home so under her instructions i am administering that.

Let me ask this: to all you wildlife rebabilitatiors- if you were brought a Tawny Frogmouth with a busted up eye, what would you do? Would you release it knowing that it would not be able to catch it's prey because it's eye sight is shot? I know i wouldn't, and have had many Tawny's euth because of this. The vets and care groups recommend this. So, at no point would i release a snake back into the bush with possibly a broken jaw, damaged venom glands, tongue, mouth lining etc because it would not be able to feed and would therefore die. And guess what? This is exactly what the vet suggested! She said if we find it looks as if it cannot eat then euthanize it, do not release. And again i will say that it would be stupid (and probably illegal) to knowingly release a badly injured animal.

 

[zulu]

What evidence do you have to back up that statement?


Stewart

Ive released pythons and lizards that had various injuries,not just cuts and wounds but blister desease in adult diamond pythons and ive observed them healing in the wild,they actually recover very well.

 

[Colletts]

That's nice to know that you're releasing diseased animals back into the wild to infect all the other healthy animals- good on you! Geeze, if only there were more great carers like you in this country.

Here are some snippets from the Code of Practice for the Care of Orphaned, Sick or Injured Protected Animals by Wildlife Care Volunteers, found on the EPA website. Please read.

Objectives of wildlife rehabilitation

3.2 To foster an environment conducive to the effective rehabilitation of animals and to ensure that the likelihood of the survival of animals once released to the wild is maximised, carers should:

f) ensure animals that are not suitable for release (and are not listed under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Flora and Fauna (CITES)) are euthanased promptly by a veterinary surgeon or another person who has authority to administer drugs to an animal under the Health (Drugs and Poisons) Regulations 1996;

j) take the responsibility for arranging for the humane euthanasia of animals unable to be successfully rehabilitated and released back into the wild.

3.1 The primary aim of wildlife rehabilitation is to return healthy, functioning native animals to the wild. The broad objectives of wildlife rehabilitation as outlined in this Code are to:

a) provide immediate sanctuary, emergency care and first aid for distressed native wildlife;

b) provide appropriate longer term care for animals suitable for rehabilitation;

c) suitably prepare animals for survival upon release;

14 Euthanasia

14.1 Euthanasia of wildlife may be necessary:

b) when further treatment is not practical or recovery is not expected such that the animal can be successfully rehabilitated to the wild; or

c) when there is a reasonable expectation that the animal will not be suitable for return to the wild (unless the species is listed under CITES).

15 Release procedures

15.1 This phase of the rehabilitation process is critical and must be carefully planned. To this end, rehabilitation must incorporate not only the physical health and well-being of the animal, but also ensure that the necessary survival skills are present. This is particularly important for predatory animals and those with highly specialised diets. In these cases, the animals may have to be taught to hunt or weaned to an appropriate diet prior to release

 

[smacdonald]

Ive released pythons and lizards that had various injuries,not just cuts and wounds but blister desease in adult diamond pythons and ive observed them healing in the wild,they actually recover very well.

And you know they've healed faster than ones with similar diseases you've retained in captivity? What was your sample size?


Stewart

 

[zulu]

re Injured

And you know they've healed faster than ones with similar diseases you've retained in captivity? What was your sample size?


Stewart[/QUOT
Just expererience over many years,thats where the sample size comes in,change of environment which induces further stress is the problem,needles and getting stuffed around with often does more harm than good,reptiles can be very tough if left to their own devices theyve survived unaided by humans for a very big sample size of years MR Downunder :lol:

 

[smacdonald]

Just expererience over many years,thats where the sample size comes in,change of environment which induces further stress is the problem,needles and getting stuffed around with often does more harm than good,reptiles can be very tough if left to their own devices theyve survived unaided by humans for a very big sample size of years MR Downunder

I've seen wild animals in good condition with old and significant injuries, so I have no doubt that they can heal and survive in the wild. I've also seen many injured animals that have been taken into care, healed well and been released. I've never seen any data that show one way is better than the other. You're obviously of the opinion (opinions are different to facts) that injured animals are better off being left in the wild. Many people would disagree with you.


Stewart

 

[zulu]

Injured

Yeh all right hit it on the head,the tyre marks on its head may be infectious,if it were released back into the wild and bonked another pale head the offspring could be "rev heads" :lol:

 

[Colletts]

Yeh all right hit it on the head,the tyre marks on its head may be infectious,if it were released back into the wild and bonked another pale head the offspring could be "rev heads" :lol:

Hmm... am i the one doing wrong here? I think not.

When you release all of these sick and injured animals that you've 'cared for', do you also monitor the health of all the mating partners each one of those animals have had, their offspring, the animals that pass over where they have been and so forth?

It is not recommended to release diseased animals nor is it recommended to release injured or orphaned animals.

 

[zulu]

re Injured

You ran the poor bugger over and now you reckon its contagious colletts,is it going to start a rubber plantation,any excuse to keep another snake,call him "goodyear" Ha ha

 

[Colletts]

You ran the poor bugger over and now you reckon its contagious colletts,is it going to start a rubber plantation,any excuse to keep another snake,call him "goodyear" Ha ha

Firstly, I didn't run it over my partner did. It was an accident, accidents happen. If we would have swerved for it we would've ended up wrapped around a tree.

Secondly, the reason why i do not want to release it is because i am afraid it will be unable to eat properly and will die a long, painful miserable death. Not because it's going to start a rubber plantation. I sure as hell would rather be killed than slowly starve to death.

Thirdly, what's this crap about keeping it? I'm not sure what state you are from but in the state of Qld you cannot keep a wild animal that cannot be released. It has to be euthanized or sometimes within reason they can be sent to wildlife parks/zoos (not that they'd want a wc possibly diseased animal). I wouldn't want to keep it anyway because it's dam ugly, probably diseased and i recently sold my Pale-head to wizz because i no longer wanted to keep the species. Would you like it? You keep going on about it. I reckon a rubber plantation could be quite an investment.

 

[Wild_Storm]

ENOUGH!!!! Sorry, but there is that much crap in here now, how is the snake going Colletts? Does it look like it is going to be ok?

I am sure you are doing all you can, and all you are required to by law. It is a hard position to be in... I rescued an animal only for the vets to put it down. It was an orphan, but vets up here don't want to put the effort in unless they are getting money for it. And the carer that demanded it be handed over to them, didn't use commonsense, they didn't feed it for the first 10 hours and then decided they should take it to the vet. However the effort and concern you are showing is admirable. Good luck.

 

[Colletts]

ENOUGH!!!! Sorry, but there is that much crap in here now, how is the snake going Colletts? Does it look like it is going to be ok?

I am sure you are doing all you can, and all you are required to by law. It is a hard position to be in... I rescued an animal only for the vets to put it down. It was an orphan, but vets up here don't want to put the effort in unless they are getting money for it. And the carer that demanded it be handed over to them, didn't use commonsense, they didn't feed it for the first 10 hours and then decided they should take it to the vet. However the effort and concern you are showing is admirable. Good luck.

Haha!

I just gave him his second needle and he seemed a lot more active and was moving a lot quicker than he has been which is great. The swelling is gone but i can still see that black blob and it seems to be getting darker. To the people who have been posting remarks to the tune of 'handling of him and injecting him will cause him more stress'- the process takes only 10 seconds, i don't pin him i use tubes. He's been entering it fine and the injection is quick then he's back out again and i leave the room, so minimal stress is being put on him.

 

[Danni]

good on ya colletts , that black blob could be a build up of blood under the skin... uno how we humans get blood blisters and after a few days the blood under the skin goes darker?
not sure if its the same sort of thing , but it could be ?
goodluck

 

[Wild_Storm]

good on ya colletts , that black blob could be a build up of blood under the skin... uno how we humans get blood blisters and after a few days the blood under the skin goes darker?
not sure if its the same sort of thing , but it could be ?
goodluck

Bingo. You beat me to it. Is that possible?? Thanks for the update. Your are going strong. Don't worry about the negativity... You will almost find more of that in this world than anything else.

 

[redbellybite]

I have come across injured wildlife that seem to have in the past had the most horrific injuries, pythons with no tail etc...and have been in great health ,although I could imagine the pain it endured whilst healing ...BUT there are also cases that you know will not heal and the poor thing will be in total agony untill it passes on which could drag on for a while,but if you were to intervene it certainly has a better chance of survival with the right first aid...then there are the impossible cases that with your help EUTH is better then suffering ....as a carer /catcher you have to make the call sometimes your call may not be what others think you should do but it finally comes down to you in the end and if you have (like youve done collettts)tried and asked all types of questions and given aid ...then you have done your best and NO ONE should give you a hard time about it ....hats off to you girl for giving a crap cause in most cases especially with vens they are either left to suffer or plagued upon by rednecks that have that attitude ...

 

[salebrosus]

I am not considering it just yet, please read my posts properly. I have been talking about euth IN CASE the wounds are SO bad that the animal would NOT be able to eat and survive in the wild. And i wont just go by my own judgement, i will post it's progress up on here, ask others opinions, talk to vets and then make a decision. The snake is doing fine right now and i am following my vets advice which is: 1. give the wound/s time to heal enough for them to be looked at without them bleeding 2. Baytril injections daily 3. check it in a couple of days (which is tomorrow) to see if the damage is going to stop the animal from eating and living normally- i will send her photo's which she will send away.

The discussions about euth are not directed only at this animal. I am collecting advice from people for any other future animals that i may get in, because in the past i have always used the fridge/freezer method and have now just decided that it may not be the way to go.

If you would have read my posts i have stated that the swelling has all but gone and that the vet would not treat the animal. I live out of town and when i rang she said not to worry about coming in as she wouldn't and couldn't see to it. I have Baytril at home so under her instructions i am administering that.

Let me ask this: to all you wildlife rebabilitatiors- if you were brought a Tawny Frogmouth with a busted up eye, what would you do? Would you release it knowing that it would not be able to catch it's prey because it's eye sight is shot? I know i wouldn't, and have had many Tawny's euth because of this. The vets and care groups recommend this. So, at no point would i release a snake back into the bush with possibly a broken jaw, damaged venom glands, tongue, mouth lining etc because it would not be able to feed and would therefore die. And guess what? This is exactly what the vet suggested! She said if we find it looks as if it cannot eat then euthanize it, do not release. And again i will say that it would be stupid (and probably illegal) to knowingly release a badly injured animal.

My comment was "whats all this IF i have to euthanase". I have read your posts clearly, i said i surprised that the vet didnt' recommend cortisone for the swelling (as in from the moment it was injured).

My argument is that animals learn to adapt and overcome......i was called to a WIRES rescue for a bluey that was one of the biggest i've seen. It had one front leg no toes and nothing else. The areas where the legs should've been were scaled over and were old injuries. The animal was very fat and had obviously very healthy. WIRES recommended euthansia, after all it could not survive int he wild with one leg. This animal had learnt to adapt to its deformity and i released back into the scrub at the rear of the property it was found.

And as far as your vet goes if she has no experience with reptiles then why is she offering advice on euthansing.

 

[Colletts]

My comment was "whats all this IF i have to euthanase". I have read your posts clearly, i said i surprised that the vet didnt' recommend cortisone for the swelling (as in from the moment it was injured).

My argument is that animals learn to adapt and overcome......i was called to a WIRES rescue for a bluey that was one of the biggest i've seen. It had one front leg no toes and nothing else. The areas where the legs should've been were scaled over and were old injuries. The animal was very fat and had obviously very healthy. WIRES recommended euthansia, after all it could not survive int he wild with one leg. This animal had learnt to adapt to its deformity and i released back into the scrub at the rear of the property it was found.

And as far as your vet goes if she has no experience with reptiles then why is she offering advice on euthansing.

I was discussing euthanizer in case i had to- IF i had to. I'm not sure we're both following each other here umm..., i'm sorry, i cant write it any other way. Anyway, when we arrived home with the snake that night it was very late. I had no intention to ring and wake the vet and then travel an extra two hours on top of the 4 we already had to get to the vet (if she would've opened for me), so that is why she didn't recommend anything for the swelling. And even if she did recommend it when i rang her the next morning, i wouldn't have been able to pick it up until 4pm that day so it wouldn't have been worth it. The swelling subsided soon after that. Honestly, the only reason i decided to bring the snake home was to fridge/freezer it- i didn't think it stood a chance. It wasn't until i got it out of the bag that i realised it may be able to be rehabilitated.

I do understand that animals learn to adapt with changes to their body. But a bluey missing feet wouldn't effect it's life as much as a snake with a stuffed up mouth. The lizard could still eat however if a snake's mouth was so badly injured it would not be able to, so therefore would slowly die of starvation when released anyway. The two circumstances are completely different.

She offered advice on euthanasia because the Code of Practice states this is the only option when an animal isn't able to be released. So to determin if it needed to be euth, she said to email pics to her and she would send them onto a herp vet who would then make the call. After all, it's not up to me or you- the vet knows best.

ANYHOW... I have some good news!!! I had a look today and could clearly see the damage because the wound had healed a little and the bleeding had stopped. It seems that the fleshy part outlining the mouth is the only part that is injured. It's still quite open and there does seem to be a blood blister there, and i can still see a small slit on the outside of his mouth where his scales start, but it all looks as if it should heal and NOT effect the way the animal eats!!! So i will continue to give antibiotics, check in a couple more days and by then it should be healed and ready for release!

Here are the pics i took. And before you flame me for stressing the animal out just to take them, remember i had to take them for the vet so they can decide if it's releaseable.

 

[Colletts]

I probably should have said, "before you all flame me"- sorry, it's not directed at anyone.

 

[snocodile]

i hope it gets realeasted (sorry for bad spelling)

 

[Australis]

I wouldn't want to keep it anyway because it's dam ugly.

Injuries aside,i think it looks plenty nice.