Is it cruel to keep a snake in a 4’x2’x2’ box?

[Earthling]

More and more evidence is coming forth that all vertebrates not only have feelings such as fear and pain, but also ‘positive’ feelings such as joy and pleasure. These pleasurable feelings point animals to behaviour thati s (mostly) good for them.

Homo sapiens are members of the subphylum called vertebrates.

The commonalities that all vertebrates including Homo sapiens have include: a nervous system (including the brain), a back bone, a digestive process, a respiratory system, a heart, blood and sexual organs. We also generally have similar responses to certain stimuli (hot/cold, punctures through skin, hunger, thirst). We also share the trait of having chemicals such as endorphins being released under certain conditions (during sex, pleasure, joy).

Now it is not hard to infer that as most of the Homo sapien species have certain physical and emotional reactions under certain stimuli, that other vertebrates that have similar physical reactions under certain stimuli also have similar emotional reactions, especially when we understand the physical and chemical similiarities between vertebrates. In the past this‘belief’ was called anthropomorphism, however, today science is understanding that we cannot hide behind this ‘human shield’ of superiority if we want to look at things truly scientifically. After all, the complexity/depth of feelings you as an individual feel are different to the feelings as I as an individual feel; however, you can get to an understanding of my emotional pain/joy from my external emotional reactions to stimuli, same as any other species.

Truth be told, having feelings is a wonderful way to ‘get’animals to do what is best for them. Otherwise why else would we have sex if not for pleasure? Or why would we fill that gnawing pit in our stomach? Or drink to quench a thirst? Or lay in the sun on a beautiful spring day? All feelings, that through natural selection, form part of the behaviour of who we and they are.

In a snakes case in the wild, some positive emotions could be the excitement of hunting, the thrill of the chase, enjoyment of the sun on its back, pleasure in moving/exploring new environments, feeling of bark, sticks, sand and perhaps moving water over its scales. Also, the sexual lust and desire of seeking a mate, and then the ecstasy of having sex with its mate. The feeling of being free to move wherever you want, without being trapped in a box. Joy in discovering a new hide. Joy in discovering and tasting and smelling a new food. The feeling of a warm breeze on its body.

Having said that, just as individual homo sapiens have different personal experiences when subject to different stimuli, the same can be said of other species and within a species. How many of you have snakes that will eat anything, whilst other snakes will only eat rats/mice from a certain supplier? Is it because the snake knows the other food is ‘unhealthy’ or is it because it doesn’t like the taste or the smell?

So…back to my original question. Is it cruel to keep a snake in a 4’x2’x2’ sterile box?

After considering the above I would have to say yes, it is cruel to keep a snake in a 4’x2’x2’ sterile box.

What do you say after reading the above?

 

[10hcaro]

Well I think it's all relative really - is it cruel to keep a frog in a 4x2x2 box? No - provided that it's set up properly for an amphibian. It is cruel to keep a 6 foot carpet python in a 4x2x2? Absolutely. Also, homosapians are difficult to compare to other animals as we have been so far removed from the evolutionary chain for some time now. Most animals are still at the stage of simply trying to survive. A snake (for example) might not value the sensory stimuli that you describe there - in the wild, whilst dodging predators and finding food, I don't think it''s on their list of priorities. Then again, other animals may be different. It''ll be interesting to see what other people think.

 

[marcmarc]

I guess it is an individual thing really. Me personally, I would like the enclosure to be somewhat furnished, things to climb over and smell etc. Give an animal something to do other than sit there/eat/sleep/poop. Interesting point to ponder.

 

[Waterrat]

In a snakes case in the wild, some positive emotions could be the excitement of hunting, the thrill of the chase, enjoyment of the sun on its back, pleasure in moving/exploring new environments, feeling of bark, sticks, sand and perhaps moving water over its scales. Also, the sexual lust and desire of seeking a mate, and then the ecstasy of having sex with its mate. The feeling of being free to move wherever you want, without being trapped in a box. Joy in discovering a new hide. Joy in discovering and tasting and smelling a new food. The feeling of a warm breeze on its body.

I would say, they do all these things instinctively in order to survive. Is there any evidence of snakes having " ecstasy of having sex with its mate" or "sexual lust"? I would think it's a part of procreation and survival of the species. I don't think we can assign or compare human feelings or pleasures with that of snakes.

 

[euphorion]

i like to give them as much room as possible once they're established. hides, natural branches, leaves, rocks, keep it clean of course but be reasonable!

 

[SteveNT]

Our bhp gets new toys all the time, hollow logs, branches, limestone with naural tunnels through it, etc and he loves it. I work out bush during the week and bring new bits and pieces back every time. He loves tunneling through shredded paper too.

I hate seeing snakes in a bare box with a hide and waterbowl and nothing else.

 

[dangles]

With my jungles, they are always in the same place no matter what stuff is put into their enclosure. 1 hangs off the glass lock, the other sits on a shelf up high on the cool side. They rarely move from these spots unless they have fed. Then they will move to their hides to digest. As for the question is it cruel to house in 4x2x2, most terrestrials under 6ft I don't see an issue. Arboreals then they should have a higher enclosure. I rarely see my snakes fully stretched out, unless they are on the grass and seeking shelter. As long as they are provided with the right husbandry requirements, an enclosure that is 2/3 the length of s snake is fine imo

 

[slim6y]

I've actually wondered about the sexual excitement of animals like praying mantis or butterflies - where one mating is all they get.

As for the 4 x 2 x 2 - what about click clacks???

I purposely built a 2m x 2m x 1m (yes, 4 metres cubed) outdoor enclosure to accomodate coastal carpets - because keeping them in the 4 x 2 x 2 (feet I assume) is ridiculous for a snake that can obtain 3m in length (easily).

 

[AndrewHenderson]

At the end of the day snakes are cryptozoic animals, humans are not. I have snakes that I keep in 4x2x2 enclosures 3xx2x3 enclosures and a SWCP that is in a 4X4X2 enclosure and where do they all spend their time? crammed in their hide or in the polysytrene cut out areas where the vents are. Never do you see them just laying in the open sections, they only pass through those areas to get to the next spot they can cram themselves into.

I have BHP's 1600mm long that will not eat if they are in a 4X2X2 enclosure but put them in a 20l flat starmaid container (500X300X150) and they will never miss a meal, go figure? I don't think snakes care about the mass of space they have, as long as they have a food source, water and a space you think it is near impossible for them to cram themselves into they are happy.

You can't compare human behaviours and tendancies to snakes, they are 2 completely different entities. Why not go the other way and say if snakes seem happy in being in the smallest space imaginable why don't humans? why do we live in 4 bedroom houses with only 2 people in them and have all these seperate rooms when we could quite easily fit 2 people in a 2 cubic meter space?

 

[Waterrat]

To say that snake are cryptozoic animals is a sweeping statement and mostly inaccurate.
Tell us, are those "open sections" in your enclosures landscaped or just empty spaces? Judging from the description of your snake's behaviour, they aren't happy animals. Of course they eat, crap and drink - they like to stay alive.

 

[slim6y]

I 100% beleive snakes get 'depressed'.

They lack UV (a fundamental part of helping to release endorphins etc in the human brain - just look at 'winter depression' amongst far northern hemisphere people who don't see the sun for 9 months of the year).

Therefore - taking the snake for a walk (to get even 10 minutes of UV) every now and then, allowing the snake to 'stretch' out is imperative for health.

Just because a snake hides during the day, doesn't mean they don't want to get out in the middle of the night, they do tend to be far more nocturnal!

 

[AndrewHenderson]

To say that snake are cryptozoic animals is a sweeping statement and mostly inaccurate.
Tell us, are those "open sections" in your enclosures landscaped or just empty spaces? Judging from the description of your snake's behaviour, they aren't happy animals. Of course they eat, crap and drink - they like to stay alive.

They are landscaped

Thanks for the insight on saying my animals aren't happy, given the fact I see them everyday and look after them, i will be the judge of that. Maybe I should look into getting my snakes counselling, afterall if they are so like humans then maybe they need it if they are depressed? Can you get reptile prozac?

 

[Waterrat]

Sorry if I offended you or your snakes. So, they're hiding day and night?

 

[AndrewHenderson]

no they don't hide 24/7, generally they come out at night for about 10 - 20 mins or so have a cruise around then bugger off back into their hides, the SWCP will sit in the polystyrene vent holes and hang it's head out most of the day and then go into a hide at night.

Whats you theory on my BHP's not eating in larger enclosures but will readily eat in a smaller container? to me, if they aren't eating in there they are stressed and feel more comfortable in the smaller tubs and will readily eat.

 

[Snake Catcher Victoria]

Is there any evidence of snakes having " ecstasy of having sex with its mate" or "sexual lust"?

Is there any evidence to say they don't?..
They propably don't but anyway, do birds? they are a little higher up the evolutionary ladder and more capable of having 'feelings' than reptiles but look at how they are kept in a lot of facilities and private homes.They eat,crap and breed but that does not make them happy. How could they be when most dont get to use their wings like they should.
I like the idea of giving all the snakes some uv and excersize every day but with a huge breeding facility/farm/ranch whatever it cant be done and if the snakes are capable of things like happiness or depression it would be a sad life for most of them.

 

[Waterrat]

Whats you theory on my BHP's not eating in larger enclosures but will readily eat in a smaller container? to me, if they aren't eating in there they are stressed and feel more comfortable in the smaller tubs and will readily eat.

I know what you're saying, a lot of keepers feed their snakes in small boxes. I wonder if it has something to do with conditioning. Have you tried to starve them a bit and then feed them in their enclosure? I would put my on it that they will eat.

Is there any evidence to say they don't?..
They propably don't but anyway, do birds? they are a little higher up the evolutionary ladder and more capable of having 'feelings' than reptiles but look at how they are kept in a lot of facilities and private homes.

That's an interesting point. Lets take it further up the evolutionary ladder. It's a well known fact that some primates indulge in sex for pleasure but the "less evolved" species (if I call them that) don't. I was observing Proboscis monkey's sexual behaviour and for the life of me, I couldn't see any excitement there. It looked to me like the the Alpha male was just doing his job, he was looking around, picking his nose and the female didn't seem to end up in a screaming orgasm either. .... Snakes don't even hiss when they're at it.

 

[Snake Catcher Victoria]

I couldn't see any excitement there. It looked to me like the the Alpha male was just doing his job, he was looking around, picking his nose and the female didn't seem to end up in a screaming orgasm either

Some humans act like this to...
Ever seen fruitbats doing it, dosnt look to romantic to me but it might be heaven for the bats, lol

 

[Bez84]

I think a 4*2*2 enclosure if fine for a snake, when i was working a bush regenerator i saw the same python in the same place
several times over a 3 year period and never seemed further then 20metres from its hide which was a dead tree stump.
So i assume she only moved from the hide to find a nice place to sun herself or to find a nice ambush position to hunt.
All things we provide in captivity so hence the snake doesnt need to move far.
Also i knew it was a she due to one year she was heavyly gravid...
And week later came across another heavly gravid python few kms away so is good to know that the local pythons are still going strong.

 

[KaotikJezta]

I just moved my male spotted into a smaller but much more interesting enclosure. In his old enclosure he was constantly trying to get out as I believe he was bored and probably depressed. In the new enclosure he has so much more to do and he uses every bit of it and has not tried to get out once so I think it is probably stimuli more than size that is important. The girl on the other hand, who will be moving tonight is a home body who likes to hide and curl up on her rock so I will see how she reacts to her new more stimulating environment. They were together but the girl started to get a little bossy with the boy so I have separated them.

 

[zulu]

Its cruel to kill flys,but lifes a bitch sometimes