Jag RPM differences

[syeph8]

The Jag originated in Norway, no the UK or America.

learn something new every day. i read that blokes journal once, good read, apparently you can get it online somehwere.. anyone know where?

There are no such Laws. You can breed what you like with what you like. A carpet with another type of carpet, a carpet with a scrub python or even a carpet with a blood python. We can create whatever Frankenstein mutt's we like and only have to answer to our consciences!

exactly.. the uk laws are that there are no laws. uk law says "do what you want with snakes, we really cant be bothered legislating on this thing"

 

[rodney]

Teksten er klippet fra Jan Eric Engels gamle hjemmeside.


After several years of breeding Coastal Carpet Pythons, Morelia s. mcdowelli, (former Morelia s. variegatae) I suddenly produced a most unusual looking specimen one day in 1994.

It looked completely different compared to all other mcdowelli hatchlings as far as pattern and color was concerned. It was almost patternless along its back except for a few markings on its neck. The background color was of a light pinkish tan with light brown blotches bordered with a black edging along the sides of the entire body.

Between the age of two and three the background color of this animal turned more and more yellow. As an adult this male still takes my breath away even though he has begun shading to very beautiful orange color. No signs of fading or black tipping of the background color has occurred in this animal, as is often the case with Jungle Carpets as they age.

In 1997 I named this exceptional specimen the Jaguar Carpet, which I found to be most appropriate due to its color and pattern.

Thus the Jaguar name was introduced to the herp scene for the very first time.

It was now time to find out if this spontaneous mutation was of a dominant or recessive trait. In 1998 I bred him with an unrelated Coastal female. Unfortunately this resulted in only four good eggs. However, one of the babies turned out to be a true Jaguar Carpet. Now there was no doubt that this was a genetic trait. The background color of this specimen turned completely yellow during its second year and with an unbelievable head pattern.

Using the same breeding pair in 1999 I produced twelve babies. Four were normals and eight were true Jaguars. All of these went to the United States.

The following year I managed to produce approximately 50% normals and 50% Jaguars from two unrelated mcdowelli females. This suggests that the Jaguar gene is of a co-dominant trait.
One female (#2 on the Coastal page) laid 49 eggs, whereas 4 were non-viable. 22 Jaguars and 23 normal sibs was the result from this clutch. Perhaps not so astonishing since the female at the time was 11 feet long and weighing close to 22 pounds, but still a pretty impressive sized clutch.
Thanks to the founder Jaguar male.

Finally, something even more spectacular appeared among the 22 Jags that year, namely the patternless Banana Jaguar Carpet with only a small blotch between her eyes. She was one of a kind, but unfortunately she died in 2002 before she reached the age of two. I have been hoping to produce some new ones ever since, but the large female Coastal has not produced a clutch since.

She was imported to Norway in 1976 when she was only about 4 feet long and today she is a huge monster at close to 13 feet with a weight of over 30 pounds. Her head is as big as my rather large fist and she has a really bad temper to go along with it. I am still hoping every year that she will lay a new clutch, but I am afraid she might have passed her retirement age.

The second female (#1 on my Coastal page) started the Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguar project that year. She was bred to the son of the founder, who I simply call “Junior” and who made his sexual debut quite early. Even though their clutch was small compared to the other one, this breeding pair managed to produce a few Hypo Jaguars including the first Red Hypo Jaguar pair.

The two Red Hypos not only lacked black tipping on the background scales, but also showed no signs of developing black tipping within the blotches. They simply looked amazing…

The background color of the Hypo Jaguar juveniles should slowly start to turn yellow by one year and continue to intensify as they age.

Despite the fact that the founder male did not turn bright yellow until the age of three, it seems like most of the offspring from the hypo bloodline develop the yellow coloration much earlier. The background color of the Red Hypos on the other hand turn into a more white coloration with age, extending from ivory white to cream to a soft yellowish white. As adults they can almost be called white hypos.

Regular Jaguars develop black tipping either on their background scales or within their blotches or both. As you can clearly see on the Regular Jaguar page. This development can start right after their first shed as a juvenile or take up to their second year to develop. Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguars do not develop black tipping and that is why I call them hypos, namely due to the fact that these specimens have a reduction in black pigmentation. Even H. Bernard Bechtel, who wrote the book “Reptile and Amphibian Variants”, agrees with me on this point.

It was not until 2003 I did my first Jaguar to Jaguar breeding and from that point on I have had some pretty amazing results as well as producing a few new Jaguar morphs. The following breedings and results have taken place here at my facility since 2003 and up until today.

HYPO JAGUAR x HYPO JAGUAR (3 clutches) = mostly Hypo Jaguars and a few Red Hypos together with normal sibs and some dead Leucists. I also produced the very first Super Hypo from my high yellow Hypo pair in 2003.

The Hypo Jaguars from such a clutch are really high contrast in pattern and color even at birth, especially the ones produced by the breeder pair already mentioned.

The Red Hypos are also unique from this breeding since the background color of the 2003 specimens have turned bright yellow instead of the usual white. A Hypo Tiger Jaguar was produced in 2004. No Regular Jaguars were produced. Since I have only produced small clutches from such breedings due to the fact that close to half of the eggs have gone bad during incubation I do need a perfect clutch in order to iron out the exact % of each morph from such a breeding.

There might also be other hidden morphs.......
I do have such a perfect clutch in the incubator ready to hatch any day now. The results will be updated later.

RED HYPO JAGUAR X RED HYPO JAGUAR (4 clutches) = mostly Red Hypos (including blue tongued and a few red tongued specimens), a few Hypos and sibs, Super Red Hypos and some dead leucists. Two of these leucists stayed alive for a while. No Regular Jaguars were produced.

One of the two clutches I produced this year from such a breeding was finally a perfect 100% clutch (no slugs!) consisting of 21 eggs with the following results:

4 Leucists (dead!)
4 Super Reds (including twins!)
3 Leopard Jaguars - red burgandy phase
1 Leopard Jaguar - super red phase
4 Red Hypos
2 Hypos
4 Normal Sibs


So there you are, a new Jaguar morph can appear if you produce a perfect clutch. The Leopard Jaguar will be updated with pics later. More importantly, what is the actual SUPER morph in the Jaguar trait?
I have never believed it to be the Leucistic Jaguar. Seems to me that the leucist gene is one of many within the Jaguar project, something the results of the breeding above should clearly indicate.

As with “Supers” from other co-dominant mutation breedings the Super usually resembles the original morph, but is a much better looking animal with brighter colors and less pattern. Or with a unique new pattern altogether even though it is easy to see where it came from.

An example of many being the Tiger Retic and the Super Tiger Retic or the Pastel Balls and the Super Pastels. An even better example is the Platty Ball python project. Here you have combinations of Lesser Platty balls producing not only two leucistic forms, but also the Super Lessers.
The Platty obviously has several hidden genes, much like that of the Jaguar Carpet.
With the Leopard Jaguar suddenly appearing I am getting even more confused concerning the Jaguar trait, but for now I am sticking to what I have called the Supers on my website, at least until the opposite has been proven.

More perfect clutches have to be produced before the Jaguar puzzle is in place.

HYPO JAGUAR X RED HYPO JAGUAR (1 clutch 2004) =
2 Red Hypo Jaguars, 3 Super Red Hypo Jaguars, 1 Hypo Jaguar and 2 dead Leucists.
No normal sibs or Regular Jaguars were produced. There were several slugs in this clutch so the result speaks for itself. More clutches needed in order to iron out the possibilities from such a breeding.

REGULAR JAGUAR X REGULAR JAGUAR =
Such a breeding has not taken place at my facility, simply because I have not kept any Regular females. I have concentrated on Hypos due to lack of space.
However, Are Hogner at Oslo Reptile Park has done so and produced the first Tiger Jaguar in 2003. Otherwise I do not have his exact results so this is something I will have to come back to.
Other Jaguar breedings that have taken place since my last update are as follows.


HYPO JAGUAR X UNRELATED COASTAL FEMALES =
During the past three seasons I have bred my high yellow Hypo Jaguar male with 3 different unrelated Coastal females. Approximately 50% Jaguars and 50% Normal Sibs was the result, not so strange considering the Jaguar trait is of a co-dominant trait. The hatchlings all looked like Hypos or Red Hypos when they were born, but a few started to develop this scale tipping already after their first shed. While others have taken up to two years to develop such tipping. Even though the amount of black tipping varies from specimen to specimen they do seem to develop this scale tipping with age, either on the background scales or within the blotches or both. Exactly like the Regular Jaguars do.

However, the bright colors of these “intermedia” Jaguars develop at a much earlier stage (usually during their first and second year), much like that of the true Hypo Jaguars. They simply have a much cleaner and high contrast appearance despite of the black tipping. I therefore prefer to call them high contrast Jaguars so they do not get confused with Regular or Hypo Jaguars.

RED HYPO JAGUAR X UNRELATED COASTAL FEMALES =
This has not been done at my facility. However, I expect the same results as when breeding a Hypo Jaguar with unrelated Coastal females.

Unless you are lucky enough to own a normal, unrelated Coastal with a hidden hypo gene. Something a US breeder is supposed to have. Just like the normal Coastal female I am fortunate to own without knowing about her “little secret” until she started the Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguar project. New hypo bloodlines are good to find within the Carpet Python world.

I have found that the only way to produce Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguars is by breeding Hypo x Hypo, Red Hypo x Red Hypo, Red Hypo x Hypo or Hypo x Normal Sib (from the Hypo/Red Hypo line) and Red Hypo x Normal Sib (from the Hypo/Red Hypo line).

Otherwise, as already mentioned a Coastal with a hidden hypo gene is needed. Someone out there might very well own such a specimen without knowing, even though it is rare.

REGULAR JAGUAR X UNRELATED COASTALS =
As with all Jaguar morphs when bred to a unrelated Coastal you do produce approximately 50% Regular Jaguars and 50% Normal Sibs. However, so far I have been fortunate enough to produce the Banana Jaguar among the Regular Jaguars in the year 2000 and almost another one (with two blotches) the year before, except this specimen managed to drown inside the egg before it was supposed to hatch.

Secondly, the Hypo and Red Hypo project from another unrelated Coastal female the same year. And finally in 2004 the Axanthic Jaguar (3 more Axanthics this year!) from a third unrelated Coastal female.

These three breedings have been a result of breeding 3 separate Regular Jaguar males with 3 normal, unrelated Coastal females (also unrelated to each other). So what is going on? The Jaguar Carpet obviously has multiple hidden genes and depending on what genetic material lies within an unrelated Coastal counterpart you might very well be facing a totally new Jaguar morph.
I guess you could say I have been blessed 3 times already! The fact that it has happened to me does not mean it cannot happen to others also. The next new morph can just as well appear at some other Jaguar owner’s facility.
NORMAL SIB (Hypo/Red Hypo Jaguar line) X HYPO JAGUAR (1 clutch) =
I produced exactly 12 Sibs, 9 Hypo Jaguars and 3 Red Hypo Jaguars from such a clutch.
The Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguars from such a breeding all look fantastic with no black tipping.

I will be producing more such clutches in order to find out more.


NORMAL SIB X NORMAL SIB (Both from Hypo/Red Hypo Jaguar line) =
My findings are from two clutches. Only Normal Sibs were produced even though they had various patterns and colors. I now consider the normal sibs from the Hypo/Red Hypo Jaguar line to be most useful since when bred to a Hypo or Red Hypo Jaguar they are in fact capable of producing both of the Hypo Jaguar morphs.

The Leucistic Jaguars are obviously a weak link within the Jaguar trait. So far I have produced a total of 26 dead leucists from the 8 Jaguar x Jaguar clutches mentioned earlier on this page.

One of these leucists hatched by itself and stayed alive for a couple of hours while another one stayed alive for three days within its egg. Are Hogner of Oslo Reptile Park has produced 8 leucists so far from his Regular Jaguar pair. One of these stayed alive for about 26 hours after hatching while another one stayed alive inside the egg for over two days before it died. He has taken video footage of this Leucistic Jaguar while it was alive. You may view this footage on the "Jaguar Photos" page.

From a total of 34 Leucistic Jaguars produced here in Norway (from two different sources) only three have shown any signs of external body abnormalities (kinks etc.). The rest have looked perfect.

So why does the few that hatch by themselves die shortly after? Could it be that their lungs are simply disfunctional during the transition to atmospheric breathing? Or could it be caused by some other internal disorder? I believe the only way to produce a healthy leucistic specimen is to dilute the Jaguar bloodline by several generations and then breed two completely unrelated Jaguars to each other.

On another genetic note. It seems to me that if you breed a Jaguar male with several normal, unrelated Coastal females this might most likely result in an unequal distribution of the different morphs, according to the variations in the genetic material of the various normal Coastal females.

An example might be that I have only produced 3 banded Jaguar specimens (from 3 separate Jaguar morphs) during the course of three years while a US breeder in 2004 produced a clutch from his Red Hypo
Jaguar male to a normal, unrelated female Coastal, whereas most of the hatchlings were banded.

The above statements reflects only on my findings at my facility so far. Breedings will vary of course. There is still a lot to be learnt, but I am slowly learning more each year as far as the Jaguar trait is concerned.
I do not have all the answers. More breeding and perfect clutches are required in order to iron out the possibilities. It seems like an endless quest since it looks like a new Jaguar morph appears almost annually. I am not complaining though.
The Jaguar project is without a doubt the most interesting Carpet Python project around and probably for years to come.

There has been a lot of discussions on Carpet forums whether my Jaguars are actual Coastals or not.
During the 1960’ies and 1970’ies the only Carpet Pythons you could get your hands on here in Europe were Coastals. All of the Carpets I collected at the time were the Brisbane variety.

Their lenghts speak for themselves. Simply the fact that my Coastals have reached lenghts on average of 10-11 feet, with the exceptions of a few 13 footers should be proof enough. My “Big Mamma“ as I call my oldest normal Coastal is now 13 feet. Two of my largest Jaguars are now approximately 10 and 11 feet long.
Do Jungles or Irians reach such sizes?


I had not even heard about Jungle or Irian Carpets when the new reptile law went into effect on January 1st. 1977, making it illegal to import reptiles to Norway. From this date on it was also illegal to own reptiles unless you obtained a dispensation from the Ministry of Agriculture. I do possess such a permit on all my snakes.

My facility is inspected a few times each year by the Norwegian Veterinary authorities. Not only are the python eggs inspected and counted, but also the babies after they hatch. Everything is accounted for and if as much as one animal should die during the year I have to put it in the freezer and report it to the authorities. I also have to keep the empty eggs frozen until the inspector arrives. All the frozen eggs as well as potential dead animals are then handed over to the vet. inspector. These are used in educational purposes or properly disposed of by the authorities.
THAT IS HOW STRICT IT IS HERE IN NORWAY. Be glad you herpers do not live here!

In other words keeping illegal animals at my facility is not worth the risk of having my collection confiscated. The only Carpet Python I have a permit for is the Coastal Carpet (former variegatae, now mcdowelli) and that is the only Carpet specie I intend to keep here in Norway. End of story!

And if you wonder why it was called variegatae back then it was simply because the Morelia “Carpet” group was devided into variegatae (all the Carpets), bredli (Centralians) and spilota (Diamonds). They were not separated into subspecies back then.

So there won’t be any further misunderstandings to the following warning. Two Europeans and one Las Vegas petstore manager tried to pass off their Irian Jaya Carpets as true Jaguars during 2001/2002. I have kept all the correspondence as evidence, just in case I ever needed proof.
NOTE!

Be aware that there are a few Irian Jaya Carpets out there that can be mistaken for true Jaguar Coastals. At least as far as pattern is concerned, but the comparison ends there. Most importantly, the color is totally different.

True Jaguars develop with age a bright yellow/orange background color.
Furthermore, the true Jaguar bloodline is capable of producing several unique Jaguar morphs.
I would therefore simply call these Irian Jayas for so-called "false" Jaguars at best, since they lack the possibilities of true Jaguars. Even though Irian Jaya Carpets are beautiful animals I would not want people to get ripped off, expecting or hoping these to be from my Jaguar bloodline.
I just wanted to clear this up once and for all.

​

Thank you!
Jan Eric Engell



Text of Jan Eric Engell, Untitled Document​

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

here you go Jimi, clutch of co-dom carpets
sorry about the size, I will get around to resizeing them one day

 

[Retic]

Actually they have laws governing the keeping of dangerous animals but there would be no point having laws regarding hybridising animals that are non native. Besides it would have no more affect than the laws we have here covering hybridising.

exactly.. the uk laws are that there are no laws. uk law says "do what you want with snakes, we really cant be bothered legislating on this thing"

 

[Kenshin]

at the end of the day no matter theyre origional origins in australia no one will care (myself included) if they came from overseas the fact is they are legally on licence for trade and i and i bet most of you want some to

nice carpets everyone that posted in the thread

 

[syeph8]

Actually they have laws governing the keeping of dangerous animals but there would be no point having laws regarding hybridising animals that are non native. Besides it would have no more affect than the laws we have here covering hybridising.

i was taking the piss... im sure there would be laws regarding all animals, not just dangerous ones. but i imagine it would be similar to the famous herper rewrite of the RSPCA motto "all creatures great an small, so long as they have fur".

i would like to get someones take on this that lives in the uk actually, on how much your government bothers with anything reptile? (i would think that venomous reptiles would require liscence)

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

Thanks for posting that Rodney. Anyone with an interest in this morph would do well to boomark that site. That, kiddies, is from the horse's mouth. It is quite interesting to know Jan has successfully bred his hypo jags to each other. Obviously there is the leucistic factor to take into account but fascinating to hear what these jag x jag breedings produce in terms of "supers" etc. I personally think our newly available RPMs are going to bring a whole new level to the designer python projects in this country!

Edit: Here is the link to the original page with that info if anyone is interested: http://www.jaguarpython.dk

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

I personally think our newly available RPMs are going to bring a whole new level to the designer python projects in this country!

Edit: Here is the link to the original page with that info if anyone is interested: Jaguarpython.dk

That is exactly why these are an exciting prospect for any keeper. Endless possibilities to produce amazing looking carpets.

 

[pythonmum]

Thanks for posting that Rodney. Anyone with an interest in this morph would do well to boomark that site. That, kiddies, is from the horse's mouth. It is quite interesting to know Jan has successfully bred his hypo jags to each other. Obviously there is the leucistic factor to take into account but fascinating to hear what these jag x jag breedings produce in terms of "supers" etc. I personally think our newly available RPMs are going to bring a whole new level to the designer python projects in this country!

I agree - very interesting. It's also interesting that the originator does not mention other neural signs. On a US forum devoted to Morelia, there was widespread agreement that there was some degree of neurological impairment in all jags, although this could be subtle. Perhaps the Aussie jags have less problems because there is a larger genetic base to work from.

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

Nice animal Barra, would that be a red hypo? As Jan stated, it may turn out that this particular co-dom trait may indeed come with countless possible variations and outcomes, very exciting!

Will be interesting to see what happens with that Pythonmum. The word on the street is that they all have neuro problems, but whether that turns out to be true or only a marginal issue, will certainly bear some looking into.

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

I was going to ask the same question, do people think this is a red hypo? me I am unsure, but after reading the journal it does sound like one to me. I have 3 like it and plan to grow them and breed them back to the mother and other coastals to see what happens.

As for the neuro issues, as said I am yet to see it after 2 years of maintaining my adults and last seasons young. However I am sure there is the odd one out there that will display it, all be it a minority.

 

[ntvnm]

Don't sugercoat things. they are all jags and include everything a regular jag would...regardless on how good they look, importing them could (and most likely have) introduced many diseases to Australia...this is the perfect example that shows the keepers that have these animals are simply in it for the money and don't really care about anything else and lets not kid our selfs, are encourageing smuggleing.

maybe i should get a maclots or a whiteliped and put it on license as a new morph of carpet, this is exactly the same thing, importing something with exotic blood (irian jaya in jags) and calling it something else.

just because what i have just said isnt what you wanted to hear dosnt mean it isnt true or shouldnt have been said.

 

[mojo73]

One thing is for sure. Be they RPM's or be they Jaguars - you will be getting lots and lots and lots of ugly mutt siblings as you start creating all of the different RPM/Jag morphs as we have over here in the UK, Europe and the US.

The only difference is if these ugly siblings with mixed heritage escape over here they will pretty much die whereas over by you guys they have a good chance of wrecking your local gene pools.

 

[Kenshin]

One thing is for sure. Be they RPM's or be they Jaguars - you will be getting lots and lots and lots of ugly mutt siblings as you start creating all of the different RPM/Jag morphs as we have over here in the UK, Europe and the US.

The only difference is if these ugly siblings with mixed heritage escape over here they will pretty much die whereas over by you guys they have a good chance of wrecking your local gene pools.

hi mojo, i dare say that we wont have that problem so rampant as xbrids are not common over here and i dare say they wont be that common here, so the siblings shouyld be half decent coastals

 

[Retic]

Ah sorry, it's just that I read so many ridiculous things on here about other countries I must admit I assumed you were serious.
The Government doesn't have too much to do with reptile keeping really, to a large degree it is self regulating and to be honest I don't think animal welfare benefits when Governments are involved.
Yes venomous reptiles and animals considered dangerous require licenses which involve a visit from a vet to make sure the accommodation is suitable and secure. Premises must be secure and rooms and cages must be locked.

i was taking the piss... im sure there would be laws regarding all animals, not just dangerous ones. but i imagine it would be similar to the famous herper rewrite of the RSPCA motto "all creatures great an small, so long as they have fur".

i would like to get someones take on this that lives in the uk actually, on how much your government bothers with anything reptile? (i would think that venomous reptiles would require liscence)

 

[syeph8]

Ah sorry, it's just that I read so many ridiculous things on here about other countries I must admit I assumed you were serious.
The Government doesn't have too much to do with reptile keeping really, to a large degree it is self regulating and to be honest I don't think animal welfare benefits when Governments are involved.
Yes venomous reptiles and animals considered dangerous require licenses which involve a visit from a vet to make sure the accommodation is suitable and secure. Premises must be secure and rooms and cages must be locked.

haha no need to apologise, most people dont get my humour when theyre standing right in front of me, let alone over a forum thanks for the info, basically what i assumed to be true based on breif snippets on information gathered off all the uk members of this site.
i also completely agree that the government involvement has done a great deal of harm to herping as well as some good. but if a government funded regulatory body elected by each states herp societies.. then we might be onto a system that works! ..radical idea i know, but hey, im a visionary genius!

 

[mojo73]

hi mojo, i dare say that we wont have that problem so rampant as xbrids are not common over here and i dare say they wont be that common here, so the siblings shouyld be half decent coastals

You have a few crosses as it is so as soon as their price drops and they are even more accessible to the masses it will happen. It's inevitable and just a matter of time.

Just imagine albino RPM's!

 

[The Devil]

You have a few crosses as it is so as soon as their price drops and they are even more accessible to the masses it will happen. It's inevitable and just a matter of time.

Just imagine albino RPM's!

{albino RPM's}...already done, well het albino RPM's were hatched in the last season or 2 so this year there might be some around..

 

[Contagion]

I don't know if anyone has hatched an albino jag/RPM yet, but I know overseas there were numerous 100% het pairings involving jags. So we should see some this year from other places. Not sure who'll be the first here.

 

[mojo73]

hi mojo, i dare say that we wont have that problem so rampant as xbrids are not common over here and i dare say they wont be that common here, so the siblings shouyld be half decent coastals

{albino RPM's}...already done, well het albino RPM's were hatched in the last season or 2 so this year there might be some around..

Ha so that will be Darwin / Coastal sibling mutts already for you Kenshin. Just wait until they contain multiple genes and it gets to the point where people don't know what they are and you get the threads asking "What type is my carpet?"

Diamond jungle bredli RPM siblings on the way......!.......!!.........!!!