Legal advice

Discussion in 'Australian Snakes' started by Dr-Zoidberg, Dec 9, 2014.

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  1. Dr-Zoidberg

    Dr-Zoidberg Active Member

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    So a good friend of mine who is a little to trusting in people purchased two pythons off a Facebook page. The seller dropped them off at her house, she handed over cash but the seller said the computer wasn't working so he couldn't print off the paperwork till the next day...dodgy right?
    The paperwork never arrived and the seller has ignored all her messages and phone calls so far.

    After reading a couple of similar threads where the advice was to contact Derm and explain and that the reptiles would be put on her licence I decided to call them on her behalf.

    ive been told by Derm that the pythons will be confiscated and destroyed as they are most likely wild caught (don't see how they can prove that) and will NOT be rehomed under any circumstances. I called national parks and wildlife service and was told the same thing by them.

    are there any other legal avenues that can be taken where the snakes are put on her license as this is an absolutely b.s. Outcome for someone who made a silly mistake not to mention taking the life of a protected animal for no fault of its own.

    Has anyone experienced this same problem in qld with a better outcome?

    The pythons have not been surrended thus far and won't be if they are to be killed. I've told her I'll buy the pythons from her if I can't find a way for her to keep them herself, legally.

    Cheers.
     
  2. apprenticegnome

    apprenticegnome Active Member

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    Can't offer any legal advice but in regards to not being able to see how they can prove that the snakes are wild caught the opposite side of the coin applies (can't see how she can prove they were legal captive bred). It's an unfortunate dilemma and while I see why they would confiscate I am unsure as to why they would destroy them but maybe there is a good explanation. Given the amount of people who keep buying reptiles and not swapping the necessary information at the point of purchase if Governing bodies don't stop adding them to licences then it's an open slather loophole for illegal caught reptiles.
     
  3. Dr-Zoidberg

    Dr-Zoidberg Active Member

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    Makes sense, I didn't ask why they'd be destroyed but I'll call back tommorow and find out. Probably the cheapest and easiest solution to kill them rather than to quarrinetine and release them in suitable habitat, sad really.


    cheers.
     
  4. Channaz

    Channaz Guest

    You think a solution would be to release them into "suitable habitat"?

    Geez Louise, facepalms all round here. You really should read up on reptile diseases and the importance of genetic integrity in wild populations.
     
  5. Dr-Zoidberg

    Dr-Zoidberg Active Member

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    Are you kidding me or what? Face palm all you want mate. if the pythons are quarantined and tested for disease and are found disease free then there is no threat of disease. on top of that releasing a healthy snake back to its natural range would have no effect whatsoever on the species at all and is done so on a regular basis when relocating a snake from one place to another by snake catchers such as myself. Maybe you should do some research.

    cheers
     
  6. Channaz

    Channaz Guest

    Well there's a few assertions there... geez all over again. I won't argue with you, macca, but I do stand by my earlier facepalms and advice.
     
  7. Dr-Zoidberg

    Dr-Zoidberg Active Member

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    What advise? You stated an opinion irrelevant to the questions asked in this thread, hopefully those face palms are knocking some sense into your head.

    cheers
     
  8. Skipperandrew

    Skipperandrew New Member

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    Hopefully someone will try to track down the seller. If it was wild caught animals, they would profit and go do it again. The animals fate would be decided by the authorities I guess. I tried to save stimsons confiscated by parks people being smuggled in the mail in WA and they were dead against releasing the animals as they never knew exact locale, if they had been in contact with other animals etc. luckily the office ladies set them up as display animals for education and spared them . As sad as it can be , legally licencing them could be beneffiting illegal poachers if that is the case
     
  9. Dr-Zoidberg

    Dr-Zoidberg Active Member

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    I'd have no problem with the pythons being surrended if they were used for something possitive like a public display like in the case you've mentioned, but to euthanise them to prove a point seems stupid to me. I have the sellers name and had my fianc? search it on Facebook, his profile seems to be a ligit one with pictures of both him and the pythons he sold to my friend. I'm going to ask her tomorrow to contact Derm herself and explain her situation and to pass on his details.

    Good to here there was a positive outcome for the Stimsons in that case.

    cheers
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2014
  10. It's a totally different scenario releasing a wild snake back into the wild, without any contact with other reptiles between capture and release, than it is releasing a previously captive animal with an unknown history into the wild. You should also know that some diseases cannot be tested for in live animals, so it is impossible to ensure that such released animals are disease free. If the animals were captive bred, they may also look like one thing while having the genetics of another firmly lodged in their DNA.

    Most jurisdictions (probably all) prohibit the release of captive animals back into the wild... for very good reason.

    Jamie
     
  11. Dr-Zoidberg

    Dr-Zoidberg Active Member

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    Thats fair enough Jamie but the reason they are wanting to confiscate them and destroy them is because they are in there words "wild caught" . If they came from the wild, then they should be sent back to the wild, not destroyed.

    and I don't see how another species genetics could be lodged in there DNA if they are suposedly wild caught and not captive bred. I understand fully the consequences of releasing hybrids, but Derm are saying they are wild snakes. It's a big contridiction in my eyes.

    killing these snakes is in no way going to solve the problem of poaching, and it deffinately won't stop people buying snakes off dodgy sellers so what is the point?
     
  12. mozi

    mozi Active Member

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    Sadly if these animals were released into a population of snakes and they were not optimally 'fit' then they would have the potential to possibly dessimate a population if they were to breed with individuals in that population these populations suvive because this has already been sorted out and all the 'unfit' animals have most likely been eliminated...probably that is DERMS reason for destroying them. I would rather see them go into some other regulated captive situation such as to a wildlife park but I can also see the point of not releasing them into the wild because even though they are 'wild caught' without extensive research it would be hard to determine what population these animals came from and its easier to destroy them particularly if they aren't rare species although it sounds good to release them it is also a threat to wild populations particularly if they were released outside of their original population from where they were caught.....make sure next time you view the persons licence I never buy or sell reptiles without seeing the actual licence the one time I did I never got their licence number despite contacting them several times after selling some sadly lots of dodgy people you can't trust..good luck with the snakes
     
  13. Dr-Zoidberg

    Dr-Zoidberg Active Member

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    I phoned Derm again, and they have said it'll be up to the discretion of the investigating npws rangers in regards to the two pythons fate but because they aren't an endangered species (pair of black headed pythons) it will be hard to place them in a wildlife park and euthanising will be the most likely outcome.

    Mozi, I wouldn't accept any snake without all paperwork being handed over, let alone buy from a random person off a social media sight. After seeing a few of the replies in this thread, I agree that releasing the snakes would cause more harm than good but my passion for reptiles clouds my judgment at times.

    cheers.
     
  14. mozi

    mozi Active Member

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    I have been stung before with the paperwork which is horrible that people don't do the right thing some very untrustworthy people out there I sold some reptiles yesterday and the buyer informed me that 'he had been lied to before' about some snakes he brought too!!! ...it is sad that other people's actions lead to such destruction of snakes but it could have more sinister effects if they were released it is easy to see how your love of reptiles clouds your judgement it does me as well hopefully all turns out well for the snakes and your friend...I guess for your friend it is a lesson learnt not to trust people
     
  15. Gruni

    Gruni Very Well-Known Member

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    Going round in circles here. The point is there is no way of proving one way or the other if they are wild caught or mixed genetic captive bred and no way of guarantying that they are 100% disease free from their captive handling so the safest option from the authority stand point is to destroy them.

    If the rangers have the discretion they 'may' allow your friend to keep them but then they send the message to off license people that it's ok to do what they do. So from any given perspective it is a lose/lose situation.

    I don't like it any more than you do but it is a sucky situation and your friend should have stood her ground until the paperwork was provided or else gone to a computer with a printer and called their bluff. Hard lesson learned really. :(
     
  16. Prof_Moreliarty

    Prof_Moreliarty Well-Known Member

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    "Some very untrustworthy people out there"

    aint that the truth doesn't matter how big or well known they are either....
     
  17. Dr-Zoidberg

    Dr-Zoidberg Active Member

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    After speaking to my friend she has decided to surrender the snakes to npws, it would be a silly mistake on my behalf to purchase the pythons from her and risk losing my license, collection of herps and end up with criminal charges. She is going to attempt to take the matter to small claims court to see if any money paid can be returned. The police were also contacted, I'll be interested to see if they do anything about it. Not the best outcome, but such is life. thanks for all the replies.

    cheers
     
  18. Senator358

    Senator358 Well-Known Member

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    Good to see that common sense has prevailed and as unfortunate as it is to see the snakes destroyed it is probably the only outcome to deter people from doing this
     
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