Legal trading of wild caught reptiles

Discussion in 'Australian Snakes' started by mje772003, Mar 29, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Sean_L

    Sean_L Not so new Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2014
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Qld, Brisbane
    I apologise for misinterpreting your statement.
    Unfortunately, if I started such a thread the likelyhood would be that its main posters would be supporters that are already aware and the message would be skipped over by those that actually need to read it.
     
  2. butters

    butters Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2008
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I have found that calling anyone an idiot rarely gets the desired result. Unless that result is to have them fire up.

    That's why I have gone with my approach of showing them what will happen if you do certain things and they work the rest out by themselves. The majority of people would rather have critters crawling around their yard than not I have found. I can't get one of my neighbors to like snakes but he tolerates them now. He still screams like a girl but does it from the deck without a shovel in his hand. It's a start.

    If there are no reptiles around in 500 years then nothing will be around. If anything is still alive it may not be the same suite of species but some will be here.

    i guess in some respects I don't always see extinction as a bad thing. It's a natural part of life. The number of species on this planet is but a fraction of the number of species that have gone extinct over time. Difference is that we now know we are the definite cause for some and may have an influence on others. Humans have been causing the extinction of species since we popped up. It's not a new phenomenon, all that has changed is the rate. We will continue to cause extinctions as long as we are here.

    We can try and limit our impact but will never negate it IMO. We cause extinctions just by existing. There are some species that we may be able to have an influence upon their continued survival but there are others that would probably go extinct without our intervention good or bad.

    So in the end, yes. You can get legal wild caught from NT and WA. You can catch your own in Tassie. The others states any wild caught must have been collected from either WA or NT or under some kind of scientific permit.
    How long for? Who knows? If humans stay on this planet according to some not for long. Me? I'm a bit more optimistic.
     
  3. Tobe404

    Tobe404 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2012
    Messages:
    960
    Likes Received:
    92
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    South Australia
    Depends entirely on the situation... Already well established (in the Pet/Breeding trade) I say leave in the wild.
    However for the rarer Animals I'd say IN THE RIGHT HANDS of a select few. Only purpose of taking from the wild would be to preserve them for future generations.
    IF they become readilty available down the track once success is had breeding them in captivity then even better.
    The World isn't always going to be in the state it once was. A number of Animals have already become extinct because of habitat loss, introduced exotics, etc.
     
  4. longqi

    longqi Very Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    2,903
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    Bali indonesia
    regarding reptiles surviving amongst humans

    one of my favourite herping spots is in the middle of the biggest city in Bali
    retics vipers rat snakes racers vines bronzebacks boigas monitors etc etc
    and this is in a country that doesnt care less about reptiles

    in 2 hours I can find 10 cobras anywhere in denpassar kuta or seminyak etc
    retics are more common in the towns than in the jungle

    regarding captive bred and neuro
    only a tiny percentage of cb reptiles have neuro
    [everybody knows my feelings so I wont repeat them]
    but neuro prone paint jobs will never dominate the pet trade

    I do have concerns about small locales
    Too much evidence here to prove that they can be hit very hard
     
  5. andynic07

    andynic07 Very Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    3,861
    Likes Received:
    12
    Location:
    Marsden
    This is a thread started by member about the legal taking of reptiles for the pet industry in Australia. You started your posts saying that you didn't agree with this because it is putting a strain on the native population and possibly driving them to extinction. Your argument seems to change slightly every few posts which you are blaming on what others have said to you. You have also resorted to name calling and trying to belittle posters on this thread. Your final message is that our wildlife in under threat from habitat destruction and other environmental factors which nobody is denying , I think the only points that people have argued is that taking of wild reptiles under management will not have an adverse effect on the overall reptile population and that people think that there is not a lot of differences (ones that will affect wild survival) between wild and captive reptiles. Most people on this site are pro conservation and would hate to see the loss of more species but you seem to be suggesting that you choose this particular thread to voice your conservation message because there would be the largest number of people that have no interest in conservation which to me is another insult.
     
  6. Snowman

    Snowman Guest

    Did this ever get answered amongst the dribble? I'd be interested to know this too. As well as how he has kept wild caught specimens in QLD?

    At the end if the day none of the legally wild caught species are under threat. That's why they have been specifically chosen for establishing a foundation stock for WA pet reptiles. As usual we have a host of opinions that have very little idea of what they are talking about. And then some others with another agenda trying to argue a half baked theory that they have concocted based on zero evidence and zero qualifications in that field.

    Grateful for the the ignore function on this forum that let's me block some of these individuals.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2014
  7. Rlpreston

    Rlpreston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2013
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Whittlesea, Vic
    Am I still blocked Snowman? I think we should give each other another chance! We're not so different, you and I!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
     
  8. Snowman

    Snowman Guest

    Nah you've been unblocked. You're not really a bad egg :p

    mostly I just block people who stray ridiculously far from facts.
     
  9. Rlpreston

    Rlpreston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2013
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Whittlesea, Vic
    You're not so bad yourself... Glad we got that sorted! ;)


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
     
  10. Snowman

    Snowman Guest

    Haha. Some people don't like my autistic style directness and being blunt. Those people have every right to block me :) That's what the function is for after all :)
     
  11. champagne

    champagne Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Messages:
    600
    Likes Received:
    2
    In general, people dont care. They like their pets and arent interested in wildlife or its well being unless they have a slice or make some dough.

    you guys are basing your opinion on a small part of the hobby... There are a lot of people that only keep and breed pure and/or locality reptiles. All these designer morphs are just the flavour of the month and this is why people new to the hobby think that this is the majority of what goes on. Also a lot of people that do breed ''designer'' reptiles, still keep and breed pure locality reptiles as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2014
  12. butters

    butters Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2008
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    Brisbane
    You can keep wild caught animals in queensland snowman just as you can in WA. You just can't catch your own. It has to be imported into the state from a state that does allow it legally.
     
  13. Snowman

    Snowman Guest

    Yes but he said:

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2014
  14. butters

    butters Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2008
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Sorry I must have missed the part where he said he then kept those wild reptiles that he caught.

    I thought it odd when you asked that question.
     
  15. Snowman

    Snowman Guest

    That's okay. Don't beat yourself up over it. :)

    Yes we were discussing the topic of keeping wild caught specimens in captivity and people's experience pertaining to this. It would be a bit pointless if he was commenting without keeping wild caught animals.

    In most states you can not catch reptiles even if you release them without a license or permit to do so. That should be obvious :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2014
  16. lithopian

    lithopian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    325
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Perth, WA
    OK… I was tagged earlier in regards to the behavioural differences between captive and wild caught carpets from WA and their eating habits. I can attest to the fact that my adult WC carpet becomes very distressed when approached with a prey item in tongs and has never eaten this way. I feed all my pythons in a feeding tub outside their enclosures and I have never even bothered trying this carpet in the tub because it immediately loses interest in food once disturbed. Even waving the item in front of the hide hole has never worked. The item is left at the entrance to the hide and has always been consumed by morning. Incidentally, this particular carpet has stopped eating and after altering numerous environmental factors I am wondering whether it has switched off feeding even though it is not being cooled.

    Someone also said (around page 2 or 3) that CB snakes will rarely coil around a prey item and sometimes do not coil at all whereas a WC will throw 2 or 3 coils before consuming. I have not found this to be the case over my womas and carpets. One of my wild caught carpets does not coil at all around prey items whilst the others always coil. Of my captive bred womas, two of them coil at least three times and will squeeze the prey item for lengthy periods (often busting blood out of the rodents’ orifices) before consuming. I have also noted that some of my CB pythons are better strikers (more accurate) than a couple of my WC pythons. I believe the general habits of snakes come down to the individual and there is not enough data to generalise what CB snakes will do compared to WC snakes. This is only my observation with my own pythons.
     
  17. Snowman

    Snowman Guest

    This is very close to my observations with wild caught specimens also. Which is in stark contrast to this:

    - - - Updated - - -

    I prefer not to state "a wild will do this", "a captive will do that". As it seems each individual is quite different regardless of it's status of captive or wild bred.
     
  18. lithopian

    lithopian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    325
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Perth, WA
    I should probably add that I have never offered my pythons anything other than defrosted rodents so cannot comment on their behaviour consuming/killing live prey. The argument of live/dead prey is simply just another variable to show that not enough research has been done to quantify the differences between WC and CB pythons in captivity. I find people's accounts of feeding habits and general python behaviour fascinating for this very reason but would not be comfortable generalising as Snow said above.
     
  19. Sean_L

    Sean_L Not so new Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2014
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Qld, Brisbane
    Ive just been reading back through this thread. Pretty messy, let me say. Ill take some of the blame for that. But I will say this. Theres a lot of hate going on here. Im no hippy, I fight violence with violence, and thats what has happened here. I postulated a theory based on intelligence and personal observation, comparable to anyone here, and was immediately prosecuted for my statement, as though I had personally attacked people, some of which werent even in the conversation yet. It then desended into a turbulent swill of defensive comments from myself, Ill admit, aimed at various people uninterested in accepting a new idea, ie, one they didnt already believe.
    The world doesnt always provide you with answers people, sometimes you have to find some for yourself. Constantly attacking someone for 'evidence' and then shooting down their observations and ideas is not at all helpful. You get insulted for doing this. Yet again, what has happened. Its not my fault if you felt I implied youre an idiot. All that proves is that you were one of the negative forces behind the less constructive parts of this discussion. Indeed theres people like you on every forum, the ones that scare off new members because youre so set in your ways and instead of providing helpful insight or constructive testaments, you attack, and fill any given thread with a negative attitude, painting anyone with a different idea to you as a bad person, and ultimately succeeding in drawing it out of them while they attempt to defend their position. I guarantee that the reply to this statement will be something along the lines of;

    'It was your fault, you started it'
    'You attacked us, it was your negativety'
    'When you call someone an idiot, theyre going to attack you back'

    Im afraid thats how you'll always see it. Youre unable to comprehend that your negativety IS actually the first blow. Some people just take it when theyre told theyre wrong by other people. In my experience, other people are generally wrong. The majority of people are idiots. Thats just how the world is. Ill stand my ground.

    The correct way to disagree with someone's idea is this;

    'Thats interesting, however, ive noticed something different. Of course, my experience and knowledge may be no more than yours, and so my opinion is no better than yours and if I were to outwardly deny your claim, id be a everything thats wrong with peope today'

    Im no longer interested in this discussion, Im afraid. Some members have proven in the end to be reasonable, butters, but others are still only interested in proving something about themselves, or myself. I dont even know what theyre trying to prove in fact.
    I guess attempting to discredit someone in whatever means they can, whether it be misconstruding their past words or selectively highlighting something that can be made out to be bad or wrong, is just what people with nothing constructive to say always fall back on.

    To answer you question, 'insert whoever asked it, I honestly forget and dont really care', butters is correct in that the captive animals I have kept on licence are imports from NT. However, as any young boy interested in reptiles has done, I did keep wild reptiles in the past, before I got my licence. Im sure Im not the only one to have done this. I wont have been the last.

    My statement that I catch wild reptiles. I dont mean to belittle anyone, but if youve honestly never caught a reptile while herping, youre not really herping.
    You learn only half the facts through observation and photography.
    If youve never held a small dragon from gemmatophora or diporiphora you wont know that their breath all smells the same, an earthy, bush smell thats common to all of them, strange, i know, but their it is.
    You wont know that the scales on the underside of a Angle Headed Dragons tail are enlarged, raised and strongly keeled to give them strength and provide the animal with a set of climbing spikes, supporting the dragon on vertical limbs with no effort.
    If youve never caught a green tree snake, or a keelback, you wont understand how strong the musk from these animals can be, and how terribly difficult it is to removed.
    If youve never disturbed a stone gecko, because youve only watched from affar you wont have heard the intense scream it produces as a defense mechanism.
    If youve never held a wild land mullet youll know nothing of the intense body strength they possess.
    And if youve never held a number of Odatria you wont realise that they attempt to escape youre grip by wiggling backward, rather than pulling forward like a dragon or skink. Why, I dont know? But I wouldnt even have thought to ponder it, unless Id actually taken the observation to the level that any zoologically minded individual does.
    If youre lucky, or wealthy enough to keep every species of reptile in Australia, Im happy for you. But quite honestly, Id still rather experience them in the wild.

    Im sorry, but I will always capture and study every tiny detail of any reptile I come across. Why? Because Im genuinely interested in them. Not just how the look, but how they feel, their texture and strength, their vocalisations and indeed their smell. If you'd rather not touch them, thats your perogative, but dont insinuate Im a bad person because I choose to take my passion further than you, may.

    (you like how I said 'may' at the end there. That was so people cant say that Im singling them out. They seem to get very defensive when you say, well, anything).

    Finally, If you dont have something constructive to say in reply to this thread, dont reply. The above doesnt need attacking, thats not constructive, at all. Im probably wasting my breath ( and unecessarily rubbing the letters off my keys) but...... you do not need to attack this comment. There are better things to do that are more beneficial to everyone. Cool?

    - - - Updated - - -

    @ snowman and lithopian

    My statement about ALWAYS throwing coils is in regards to live prey animals, in my experience. I admit, it may have been hastly to generalise without more input from others' experiences. I guess thats what a discussion is about.
    I admit also snowman, that the evidence is inconclusive to someone who isnt already biased. I believe the evidence could be provided by proper studies however, especially down the track when differences are likely to become more apparent with continued breeding.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2014
  20. butters

    butters Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2008
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Haha I wasn't worried, no skin off my nose.  I just put the sorry in there because I always try to be polite. :) .

    He could have a damage mitigation permit to catch and release for all I know but as you mentioned in queensland you then can't keep an animal once caught. Still plenty of avenues to legally keep wild caught. I keep some myself legally caught and imported from NT and they are just a snake. To me no different than captive bred in behaviour.

    I agree not all wild caught will do strike every time and it's IMO like yours that it's an individual thing. Which is why I posted the photo of a wild olive that I witnessed neither striking or coiling.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page