New: Advice and ideas for a snake would be appreciated!

[Bl69aze]

You will find snakes prefer secluded areas as long as it provides everything they need

 

[Imported_tuatara]

keelbacks are very much active, also diurnal. Except; they are also almost 3 feet long, and from what i know not very good at tree climbing, so that could possibly be a bad choice.

 

[cris]

I am thinking of having an enclosure that is 2 foot (depth) by 3 foot (width). The water section would be 1 foot high and then from the waterline to the top of the enclosure it would be 2 foot high. (Rough measurements)

That is a very good size for a green tree python or a common tree snake. Pythons are not very active animals, I think a common tree snake is the best fit for your criteria. If you can find one that is weaned and are able to deal with their speed and agility. The speed and agility is less of an issue if you keep them in a room were they cannot slide under a door, under a fridge etc. if they fly out of the enclosure. If you get a hatchling you should also start it off in a small plastic enclosure.

 

[GBWhite]

Personally my friends, if you have no previous experience in keeping snake I would recommend you educate yourself and get some background experience on the the subject of housing snakes in captivity before even attempting to keep one in a set up as described. My concern is for the welfare of the snake and what you propose is not something for an inexperienced keeper to attempt.

 

[cris]

Personally my friends, if you have no previous experience in keeping snake I would recommend you educate yourself and get some background experience on the the subject of housing snakes in captivity before even attempting to keep one in a set up as described. My concern is for the welfare of the snake and what you propose is not something for an inexperienced keeper to attempt.

I get what you are saying here, I'm not really experienced to comment as I grew up catching tree snakes and stuff from a young age, so I don't really know the learning curve if starting from scratch at an older age. I think some people are likely to be able to deal with this sort of challenge without much trouble, while others who have kept pythons for many years would be unable to.

 

[ShrimpKing]

All points noted!

Ive had encounters with Common tree snakes before (Photography trips) and am fascinated by such a snake.

GBWhite, I do not pretend to be ready for anything intense and your advice is helpful.
It is something I have not experienced before, and this project will spend much time in the planning/research gallery!
Thank you for your honesty.

 

[Bluetongue1]

keelbacks are very much active, also diurnal. Except; they are also almost 3 feet long, and from what i know not very good at tree climbing, so that could possibly be a bad choice.

According to AROD Keelbacks average 50 cm and get to a maximum of 1.2 m. Whereas Common Tree snakes average around 1 m in length and can get to 2 m. Be careful when making assumptionsor statements about a snake’s climbing ability. This news article was recently featured on a thread here…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/tiger-snake-balancing-act-at-tasmanian-winery/9445744.

What is being proposed would be ideal for a Keelback. Here is a thread by Baker showing his set up for his keelback…
https://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/threads/keelback-enclosure.221883/

There were some comments made about the potential dangers of chemicals in aquariums to reptiles. I don’t wish to offend, but that is not correct. Aquatic organisms are a lot more sensitive to water quality than terrestrial animals, including reptiles. If freshwater fish are heathy and living in the water, then it is fit to drink for reptiles (or humans for that matter).

As with all animals, good husbandry avoids the need for medications. Where things do wrong, for whatever reason, and tanks need to be medicated, the chemicals utilised are designed to be used at concentrations that will correct the ailment whilst not adversely affecting the occupants, including aquatic reptiles such as turtles. Treatment in a “hospital tank” does not involve other organisms, so is not relevant to this discussion, but the same realities apply. Note, we are talking freshwater aquariums, so the various chemicals utilised in marine tanks are not relevant.

 

[Snapped]

It's good to have such broad experience on here.

What if the snake poops in the water? (I know mine do in their water bowl 90% of the time)....would that harm the fish or would the filtration take care of it?

 

[cris]

There were some comments made about the potential dangers of chemicals in aquariums to reptiles. I don’t wish to offend, but if you were an experienced aquarist and also had expertise in keeping reptiles, you would know this is not correct. Fish are a lot more sensitive to water quality than terrestrial reptiles and the experienced aquarist. If freshwater fish are heathy and living in the water, then it is fit drink for reptiles (or humans).

I obviously think you are wrong, just because something is safe for one animal doesn't automatically make it safe for another. I cannot recall what it is but there is one chemical in particular that is used to treat fish that is highly toxic to snakes and can be lethal if the fish are eaten.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Plenty of chemicals out there used in aquariums for fish and algae that will annihilate crayfish, shrimps and snails in minutes... Plenty of chems that won't affect turtles at all (like chlorine and chloramine) that will roll fish in minutes too.

 

[Bluetongue1]

It's good to have such broad experience on here.


What if the snake poops in the water? (I know mine do in their water bowl 90% of the time)....would that harm the fish or would the filtration take care of it?

That would not be a problem I would expect most of the poop to end up in the water. It would undergo the same process as fish poop. Note that turtles poop in water in copious quantities. This is addressed through a higher rate of filtration than that required for just fish and the OP has experience at keeping turtles. Given the size of the intended enclosure I’d reckon a standard filtration for that sized aquarium would be fine. If you should be interested in the basics of filtration for freshwater aquaria, I am happy to provide an outline (either here or via PM).

I obviously think you are wrong, just because something is safe for one animal doesn't automatically make it safe for another. I cannot recall what it is but there is one chemical in particular that is used to treat fish that is highly toxic to snakes and can be lethal if the fish are eaten.

It is all well and good to make that statement, but unfortunately it carries no weight without being able to identify the chemical concerned. I have operated a least one aquarium (and usually more) continuously for over 30 years now and don’t know which chemical you are referring to. It may possibly be one the old style toxic treatments which have since be replaced by much safer alternative these days.

At no stage did I state or intimate that “because something is safe for one animal” that “automatically makes it safe for another”. One has only to look at the example of the medication Ivermectin. It is used for mite problems with other reptile groups, and also marine fish, but is highly toxic to turtles and tortoises.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

One has only to look at the example of the medication Ivermectin. It is used for mite problems with other reptile groups, and also marine fish, but is highly toxic to turtles and tortoises.

This is very true. Ivermectin should not be administered to turtles at all to treat a worm or nematode infestation. Instead, Panacur (Fenbendazole) should be administered orally at the rate of 25 mg/kg once a fortnight for 8 weeks

 

[ShrimpKing]

According to AROD Keelbacks average 50 cm and get to a maximum of 1.2 m. Whereas Common Tree snakes average around 1 m in length and can get to 2 m. Be careful when making assumptionsor statements about a snake’s climbing ability. This news article was recently featured on a thread here…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/tiger-snake-balancing-act-at-tasmanian-winery/9445744.

What is being proposed would be ideal for a Keelback. Here is a thread by Baker showing his set up for his keelback…
https://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/threads/keelback-enclosure.221883/

There were some comments made about the potential dangers of chemicals in aquariums to reptiles. I don’t wish to offend, but that is not correct. Aquatic organisms are a lot more sensitive to water quality than terrestrial animals, including reptiles. If freshwater fish are heathy and living in the water, then it is fit to drink for reptiles (or humans for that matter).

As with all animals, good husbandry avoids the need for medications. Where things do wrong, for whatever reason, and tanks need to be medicated, the chemicals utilised are designed to be used at concentrations that will correct the ailment whilst not adversely affecting the occupants, including aquatic reptiles such as turtles. Treatment in a “hospital tank” does not involve other organisms, so is not relevant to this discussion, but the same realities apply. Note, we are talking freshwater aquariums, so the various chemicals utilised in marine tanks are not relevant.

I assure you, I have kept turtles, shrimp, crayfish and many species of fish all in the same tank for 6 years. I use no chemicals and would treat an aquatic snake enclosure in the same way that I keep either my turtle tank or my native fish breeding tank. I have never had to use "Chemicals".

Thank you Bluetongue1, that thread is great! While my idea for a tank would be slightly different, that is the general methodology behind how I would achieve such a habitat.

It's good to have such broad experience on here.

What if the snake poops in the water? (I know mine do in their water bowl 90% of the time)....would that harm the fish or would the filtration take care of it?

As for the snake pooping in the water (Valid question by Snapped), turtles poop in the water all the time. The Uric acid that reptiles excrete is similar (concentration is different) between snakes and turtles. Proper chemical filtration (type of aquarium filtration, NOT using "chemicals") and bio filtration take care of this.

 

[Rowdy71]

I obviously think you are wrong, just because something is safe for one animal doesn't automatically make it safe for another. I cannot recall what it is but there is one chemical in particular that is used to treat fish that is highly toxic to snakes and can be lethal if the fish are eaten.

hi

used to keep marine fish and i remember the treatment for white spot (parasitical infestation) had a warning on the bottle, not to eat fish that were treated with this medicine. i didnt eat my marine fish so i never thought twice about it.
some toxins in fish can also become more concentrated in predators as the fish is only exposed once but the predator consumes many affected fish and the toxin builds. this is not caused by the water though and im fairly sure any activated carbon in the fish filter would effectively remove it from the water.

hope this helped

 

[ShrimpKing]

hi

used to keep marine fish and i remember the treatment for white spot (parasitical infestation) had a warning on the bottle, not to eat fish that were treated with this medicine. i didnt eat my marine fish so i never thought twice about it.
some toxins in fish can also become more concentrated in predators as the fish is only exposed once but the predator consumes many affected fish and the toxin builds. this is not caused by the water though and im fairly sure any activated carbon in the fish filter would effectively remove it from the water.

hope this helped

Hi mate,
You are absolutely right!!
I don't treat fish disease (my tank usually balances itself).
Biomagnification through the food chain is always a concern, however again, my freshwater systems are packed with activated carbon and all sorts of bio filtration.

Im not saying that the reptile, in this case a snake, is above harm, but with the proper setup (that has been cycled for a few months) many bio-magnified chemicals can be completely avoided.

 

[cris]

It is all well and good to make that statement, but unfortunately it carries no weight without being able to identify the chemical concerned. I have operated a least one aquarium (and usually more) continuously for over 30 years now and don’t know which chemical you are referring to. It may possibly be one the old style toxic treatments which have since be replaced by much safer alternative these days.

I just remember the warning from a credible source specificially in relation to feeding aquarium fish to snakes. Anyway not worth arguing about.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

I just remember the warning from a credible source specificially in relation to feeding aquarium fish to snakes. Anyway not worth arguing about.

You shouldn't feed goldfish to any reptile, including snakes... that includes all members of the goldfish and Carps - fancy and ordinary, the entire cyprinidae family of fishes, goldfishes, Carps and minnows are extremely high in thiaminase enzymes that when ingested, cause a thiamin (vitamin B1) deficiency in reptiles.

The below diagram shows where thiaminase cleaves vitamin B1 rendering it useless.

 

[cris]

You shouldn't feed goldfish to any reptile, including snakes... that includes all members of the goldfish and Carps - fancy and ordinary, the entire cyprinidae family of fishes, goldfishes, Carps and minnows are extremely high in thiaminase enzymes that when ingested, cause a thiamin (vitamin B1) deficiency in reptiles.

The below diagram shows where thiaminase cleaves vitamin B1 rendering it useless.
View attachment 323575

This came up when I was looking for the info about what the chemical I was trying to remember. In reply to a similar comment to yours.

The author has missed several points that were corrected by the first reply. The thiaminase is live fish is inactive. It might well be in high levels but it is non functional until it undergoes an unexpected chemical conversion following the thawing process where it becomes activated and now able to cause damage. Those fish are perfectly safe to use if not frozen. You'll notice all references to thiaminases in live fish are referred to as anecdotal evidence, postulated theories and suggested ideas - there is no scientific evidence to back it up and ceratinly there is no veterinary evidence to support thiamin deficiency fron feeding live fish.

 

[ShrimpKing]

You shouldn't feed goldfish to any reptile, including snakes... that includes all members of the goldfish and Carps - fancy and ordinary, the entire cyprinidae family of fishes, goldfishes, Carps and minnows are extremely high in thiaminase enzymes that when ingested, cause a thiamin (vitamin B1) deficiency in reptiles.

The below diagram shows where thiaminase cleaves vitamin B1 rendering it useless.
View attachment 323575

YES! The very first thing my mate told me when I asked about turtle tank mates was that the cyprinidae are to be avoided unless you want a dead turtle.

If I were to have fish in a tank with a snake, they would be small native fish. For example: Australian Smelt, some types of Rainbow fish and small gudgeons.

This came up when I was looking for the info about what the chemical I was trying to remember. In reply to a similar comment to yours.

Still wouldn't risk it!

 

[baker]

If I were to have fish in a tank with a snake, they would be small native fish. For example: Australian Smelt, some types of Rainbow fish and small gudgeons.

From my own experiences owning a keelback, while it looks awesome with the snake and fish in the same tank, the snake always ends up eating the fish. If you don't mind that happening then go for it, just make sure to chose fish that would be safe for the snake to eat. Only way you'd probably get away with it is if the fish were large enough the snake does not see them as food, but not large enough that they could damage the snake in any way. Tiny fish can last for a while as well, but even in complex aquariums the snake typically ends up getting them in the end. With keelbacks it's really not a matter of if they will eat the fish, its a matter of when.

From the sounds of the sort of tank that you're aiming for a keelback is probably the best choice for you. If given the option they can and do climb pretty well, but most of the time they're either on the ground or swimming. For mine I would say a decent 70 plus % of his time is spent in the water. They aren't inherently difficult snakes to keep, give them a hot spot, water and food and they're fine. Hardest part with them is that they start tiny, can have a flighty personality and that coupled with being rather fast when scared would make them a challenge for people without experience with snakes. They also aren't the easiest snakes to come across for sale and there is not much around detailing their captive management. Ben Moore did a good article though in a scales and tails issue a couple of years a go and Scott Eipper's book "A complete guide to Australian snakes, elapid and colubrids" has an excellent section on them as well. Both of these sources of information potentially may be a bit of a challenge to track down though.

There are other species though for you to look into. A Macleay's water snake (Pseudoferania polyepis) or either of the file snakes (Acrochordus sp.) are other options for this style set up and are all interesting snakes in their own rights as they are predominantly aquatic. From what I've heard Macleay's do seem to like the availability of a branch to 'bask' on and get out of the water, but most of the time they're in the water. Again any of these species are going to be difficult to find for sale with little information out there on their care. That and these species may be more difficult animals to keep, but I don't have personal experience with any of them so I can't really comment.

Cheers, Cameron