New reptile coming

Discussion in 'Australian Lizards and Monitors' started by bluedragon, Dec 11, 2017.

  1. pinefamily

    pinefamily Subscriber Subscriber

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    The lack of eating could be the settling in process in his new surroundings. I'd be giving him more than that at a feed. He should be eating live food every day at that age, I would have thought.
     
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  2. Aussiepride83

    Aussiepride83 Well-Known Member

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    Throw him in my woody bin for half hour a day. He'll be right. 20170928_181145.jpg
     
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  3. Bl69aze

    Bl69aze Well-Known Member

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    He’d get lost XD never find him again
     
  4. Aussiepride83

    Aussiepride83 Well-Known Member

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    He wouldn't go far. Be too full. Lol
     
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  5. Bl69aze

    Bl69aze Well-Known Member

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    Thought I’d share this guy (or gal), seemed to be ok with holding, wasn’t a fan of me moving my hands around. But I guess this is what normal eyes look like

    AC7E4921-4556-4639-B5FD-E21ACCF8B3D0.jpeg
     
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  6. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 APS Veteran APS Veteran

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    It is only to be expected that the lizard is going to take a little while to settle into its new environment, even more so given it is territorial by nature, a male and it is breeding season. So it should have been left for at least a week before trying to feed it. Not doing so only provides additional stress factors for the lizard in terms of disturbance and other occupants it would be better off without until settled in. For the first week or so all that should be done is to spray some water every couple of days where the lizard can access and lick up the droplets.

    Given it is adult size, feeding every three days is appropriate. Do dust the food items with a proprietary calcium/vitamin D supplement every 2 out of 3 feeds – not every meal. Only young ones during the first 6 months need to be fed daily.

    I can only but agree that woodies are more nutritious. But that is something you introduce only once the new acquisition is well established at feeding as it was with the previous owner. Woodies can get much larger than crickets. The appropriate size to use is roughly the distance between the eyes or, if you like, about half the size of the lizard’s head. Woodies are very good at hiding away in the enclosure if allowed to wander. The best way I know to avoid this and yet allow them to move so that your lizard can pick off individuals one at a time, is to use an appropriate sized bonsai pot as a feed dish - paint the inside lip with Fluon and block the drainage holes. Works a treat.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
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  7. Aussiepride83

    Aussiepride83 Well-Known Member

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    It's a lot easier to just select however many woodies you want to feed the lizard, for example, 6 and pinch their heads with your feeeding tongs then put them in your lizards enclosre. This will disable the woodies significanly causing them to just flail about and kick but not run and hide or escape. This is what I do to tens of woodies every day prior to throwing them into my turtle aquariums and green tree frog's vivarium. Woodies with pinched heads will survive for days.
     
  8. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 APS Veteran APS Veteran

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    That is a definitely an effective alternative method. However I fail to see how having to behead each is “a lot easier” than just dropping them in the food bowl once it is set up.
    Mealworms cop an undeserved bagging in this country, one which I consider is not warranted. In the US and Europe, where herpetology has been established much longer and much more strongly than here, multitudes of reptiles and amphibians were reared and bred on mealworms alone before other live foods became commercially available. Issues with impaction were seldom heard of, so long as animals were kept well hydrated and omnivores were given some veggies. Same thing with the calcium to phosphorous ratio. You used to provide additional calcium for healthy bone growth and sunlight or vitamin D and it was a non-issue.
     
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  9. Aussiepride83

    Aussiepride83 Well-Known Member

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    Except for the comment on sunlight, I disagree.
    With turtles, for instance, the bagging of mealworms isn't "undeserved" they cause a real problem which cannot be rectified with calcium supplements. The problem with calcium supplements, like Repti-Cal for example is they cause an extremely rapid rise and elevated level in blood calcium. This in turn causes gout and hypercalcaemia, we avoid this with turtles by simply using calgrit in the aquarium to buffer the water chemistry, specifically (pH, KH and GH). Calgrit does not cause a rapid elevated level of blood calcium levels. Keeping a turtle well hydrated... that's pretty easy, being aquatic and all. Vegges also cannot be offered to turtles as a dietary supplement because many like corn and spinach for example contain oxalic acid which when ingested, binds with calcium forming an insoluble salt, calcium oxalate which builds up in the kidneys causing kidney failure and premature organ failure. Also, peas for example... Peas or any food supplement containing peas should never be fed to turtles OR tortoises as peas are high in phytic acid which binds with calcium and magnesium preventing the turtle/s from metabolising and utilising them even if supplements are added to the diet it will not overcome the problem, but rather create a further deficiency. This is why commercial frozen turtle dinners containing red meats AND vegetables intended for human consumption should NEVER be offered to turtles. A varied natural diet consisting of aquatic plants, aquatic and terrestrial insects, invertebrates and fish are the best diet for an aquatic turtle. No mealworms, instead, earthworms and silkworms should be offered. Both are extremely high in calcium and low in phosphorous and chitin.

    Back when the earth was considered flat and the moon was thought to be made of cheese, when people thought "penny turtles" were real, it was also considered relatively safe to feed mealworms to reptiles. It was 'Normal for a turtle to only get to the size of a penny because they were severely stunted/deformed and only survived for a few months until dying at which point people would just acquire a replacement. We know know that turtles grow to the size of a dinner plate when cared for properly and survive for up to 100 years.

    I have many books on reptiles and specifically turtles that were published as far back as the 60's and 70's and the mention of mealworms being avoided as a food source for reptiles can be noted in publications from as early as 21 years ago in 1996, (unfortunately that was too late for me). We've come a long way from back in the day when mealworms were "OK." Back in the mid 90's I lost several Green Tree frogs (to impaction) that were fed a varied diet that mealworms were a very big part of. My parents used to drive from our property in the Upper Macleay Valley, south to a place called Wauchope once a month to buy a supply of mealworms from a breeder specifically to accommodate my reptile/amphibian hobby. Little did we know back then but we know now and my 6 GTF's that I keep today never have nor will they ever see a mealworm offered to them.

    All I can say is we Live an learn.
     
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  10. Bl69aze

    Bl69aze Well-Known Member

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    Turtles are pretty cool :( especially mata mata the ugly boys... and Mary river turtles are a nice colour
     
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  11. Aussiepride83

    Aussiepride83 Well-Known Member

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    Jardine river and Manning River turtles are a lot more coloured than Mary's.
     
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  12. pinefamily

    pinefamily Subscriber Subscriber

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    The only downside to mealworms as a food source that I am aware of is the lower nutritional value. It's a great food source for problem feeder lizards, to get them eating. The lower nutritional value, and the fat content, have been discussed both on here, and other reptile forums, previously. Never heard of impaction being an issue. Perhaps turtles are different in the way they process food.
     
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  13. Aussiepride83

    Aussiepride83 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Pinefamily. It's the chitinous exoskeleton which is difficult to digest that causes the impaction problems. Occasionally Feeding mealworms and or superworms to reptiles when they're newly shed and still white and soft is generally deemed OK. Turtles, frogs and lizards have all been recorded having had problems when fed mealworms. It's most likely a case when the animals have been fed mealworms almost exclusively. Every now and then they wouldn't cause a problem. They do however have the nutrient benefits not dissimilar to cardboard.
     
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  14. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 APS Veteran APS Veteran

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    Please note that I deliberately did not mention how calcium was provided, as there are various ways to go about it, depending on the animal, and I wanted to focus on mealworms, not calcium intake. Out of interest what did you mean by the comment “when people thought ‘penny turtles’ were real”? I still think they were real. And how was impaction diagnosis as the cause of death in your Green tree frogs?
    This sentence quoted conveys the message that “considering mealworms relatively safe to feed to reptiles” is on a par with believing the world is flat etc. Scutellatus makes a valid point here. (At the same time I feel the last line of his comment about turtles and attitudes is not valid as stated.) For myself, when a reply belittles comments I have made, it is a strong indicator that the person replying is not able to address and counter those comments factually and rationally. Just as an aside, I have noted through experience that this tactic is most often followed by going off at a tangent to avoid the crux of the issue.

    That said, let’s get back on track. You addressed feeding mealworms to turtles and provided one anecdotal account of Green Tree Frogs dying from impaction due to being fed only mealworms. Yet the comment I challenged was “I would not give them to any reptile or amphibian”. There remains a lot of reptile groups left unaddressed, just leaving amphibians aside for the moment. The problem here, as I see it, is you have made a sweeping generalisation as result of specific personal experience. Your attitude is warranted in terms of your experience but it does not apply to broader spectrum of herpetology in general. Broad generalisations seldom hold water when inspected more closely.

    Just to clarify, I am aware that progress in early herpetological husbandry was a process of trial and error (as it was with most animal groups). Our current and still developing knowledge of biochemical pathways in animals, and biochemical analyses of feed items, is helping to eliminate the errors and allowing us to provide more convenient, but still appropriate, dietary alternatives. It is making it much easier to keep. My comments are therefore not to be interpreted as diminishing that worth in any manner. It is the invalid use and deriving of superficial and spurious conclusions, using some of that data, that I take exception to.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
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  15. Stuart

    Stuart Site Admin Staff Member

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    Enough is enough Gentlemen.

    This dialogue is reminiscent of the old APS days whereby respect was a foreign word.
     
  16. Aussiepride83

    Aussiepride83 Well-Known Member

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    The info about mealworms isn't a Sweeping generalisation concocted by myself, many publications regarding reptiles today and for the last 20 years and all respected reptile vets Australia wide warn of the dangers associated with gut impaction and the phosphorous to calcium ratio when feeding mealworms to reptiles and amphibians.

    All good, I'm happy for you to not acknowledge that if you wish, it won't affect my animals at all. Mealworms always will be bird food as far as this black duck is concerned.

    Cheers.
     
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  17. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 APS Veteran APS Veteran

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    That is effectively what I said, in different words, and I provided a counter argument... but is was not addressed. Unfortunately the speil that you did give was full of many errors.

    I do enjoy reading many, if not most of your comments when I get the time to hop on the forum. I hope that continues.

    Regards,
    Mike
     
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  18. Aussiepride83

    Aussiepride83 Well-Known Member

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    OK, I see where your issue with my comment is... "I would not give them to any reptile or amphibian" is my own personal preference, not solely because of the impaction issue alone (which is legit) but because of their nutrient deficient composition and poor calcium to phosphorous ratio. No errors. I have used mealworms to feed many of my inverts though, Tarantulas, scorpions and centipedes. I've also used them as bait (their hard exoskeleton serves a good purpose here in keeping them on the hook much better than softer baits) ;) to eliminate a whole school of 30+ Spangled Perch - Leiopotherapon unicolor with a hand line that were inadvertently introduced to a closed turtle breeding dam via birds with much success.
    Spangled Perch.png

    Interesting... Spangled Perch and Spangled Drongos both appreciate mealworms...
    P1050930sml.jpg

    For herps, you simply Can't go past compost worms and silkworms though... Frogs, turtles, lizards etc will benefit far more from these rather than inferior mealworms.
    worms.jpg
    20161007_154149.jpg
    Nom nom nom. Silkworms for breakfast.
    20171028_070344.jpg
     
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  19. bluedragon

    bluedragon Active Member

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    just a Q i was at my old work place the other day and i noticed that his central netteds were massive very fat very long there heads were massive i couldnt belive that there 3 yo i hope mine reaches that size i hope he doesnt have a diphormed body growth but he is only 2 i dont know whats going on im just so shocked im mean there the biggest central netteds ive
     
  20. Bl69aze

    Bl69aze Well-Known Member

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    The ones I work with aren’t that big either.. maybe 10cm?? Head to tail
     

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