no exotics!!

[Macca]

Earlier in the thread, someone stated that there is only a few examples of exotics becoming problems in the wild. This is very far from the truth. In Australia alone, we have sliders, asian house geckos and flowerpot blindsnakes all increasing in range.

In Florida alone, the number is now 48 for species of introduced reptiles. Only, a small number of these are not estabished. Burmese pythons are only the tip of the iceberg. What about the Nile Monitors causing chaos along Cape Corral? Green Iguanas? Numerous species of anoles?

I think you'll find reptiles establishing themselves in many, many countries around the world. In some places with some species, it may not be a problem. To my knowledge Lampropholis delicata (Garden Skink) is not causing too much trouble in NZ. However, a great many species have great pest potential.

Someone also pointed out that there a number of other exotics in the country, why ban reptiles? Many, if not most, exotics in the country have caused massive problems and animal extinctions already. Foxes, cats, dogs, goats, cattle, trout, mosquito fish, carp, toads. Even many of your aquarium fish escapees or releases have now become established in the tropics. I won't even mention invertebrates because the number would greatly exceed Hix's disease and parasite list.

 

[Australis]

Earlier in the thread, someone stated that there is only a few examples of exotics becoming problems in the wild. This is very far from the truth. In Australia alone, we have sliders, asian house geckos and flowerpot blindsnakes all increasing in range.

In Florida alone, the number is now 48 for species of introduced reptiles. Only, a small number of these are not estabished. Burmese pythons are only the tip of the iceberg. What about the Nile Monitors causing chaos along Cape Corral? Green Iguanas? Numerous species of anoles?

I think you'll find reptiles establishing themselves in many, many countries around the world. In some places with some species, it may not be a problem. To my knowledge Lampropholis delicata (Garden Skink) is not causing too much trouble in NZ. However, a great many species have great pest potential.

Someone also pointed out that there a number of other exotics in the country, why ban reptiles? Many, if not most, exotics in the country have caused massive problems and animal extinctions already. Foxes, cats, dogs, goats, cattle, trout, mosquito fish, carp, toads. Even many of your aquarium fish escapees or releases have now become established in the tropics. I won't even mention invertebrates because the number would greatly exceed Hix's disease and parasite list.

Macca,

Your spot on mate, its funny people dribble about there being no problems in Southern states like Victoria with captive animals becoming established with wild populations etc...

Umm...
Queensland and other northern parts of Australia have a much more suitable climate for reptile invaders.

Also just because we already have feral animals, in the form of mammals and fish... etc

Why add reptiles to the growing list?

 

[Retic]

Limited number of species :lol: You need to get out more Matt. :wink:

Im confident legal import of exotics wont take place atleast in my lifetime, is it really so important to people to be able to keep the limited number of exotic species already in the country?

Matt

 

[Australis]

Boa, ive been out dont worry, and ive been offered.

What i mean is "limited" in regards to what we have now, if it became legal at any stage, its not to say that we can import more species.

It would be limited to whats already in the country. unless you think we have it all in Australia already :roll:

I dont hate exotics, dont get me wrong, i just dont see any advantage in being able to keep them in a legal manner in Australia.

Limited number of species :lol: You need to get out more Matt. :wink:

Im confident legal import of exotics wont take place atleast in my lifetime, is it really so important to people to be able to keep the limited number of exotic species already in the country?

Matt

 

[Macca]

Hix,

Your argument in terms of a common disease causing large scale problems in animals not from its region of origin is correct. I think the prime example of this is Chytrid fungus in frogs. Won't go into too much detail. Spread to many areas of the globe from Africa, where it causes little problem too the native frogs. It's now thought to be behind the extinction of over one hundred of frog species worldwide in the last twenty years. In Australia, it is thought that it has been responsible for the extinction of eight species, including the sole two species of gastric-brooding frog. There are others that will probably disappear as a result in the next ten to twenty years. Nothing can be done to stop it.

Fortunately in reptiles, a disease of such significance hasn't been identified. Hopefully it doesn't. But that doesn't mean there isn't one. Diseases evolve in a parasitic relationship with their host in a way that they don't kill the host. Hosts evolve with a level of resistance to these diseases. When introduced to animals that have never been exposed before, you can have instances such as Chytrid. I'm sure back in the sixties when African frog Xenopus laevis, was sent around the world for research and pregnancy tests, they weren't aware they were possibly spreading a disease that would go on to be responsible of this era's largest extinction events.

P.s. I think all reptiles are great, including exotic reptiles. However, the risks to this country, in terms of pest potential and disease, being isolated from other regions for so long proves to great though, to warrant keeping them.

I'll stop long posts now

 

[Lurk]

I think that exotics are impressive....But now I am going to sound like a tree hugging hippy. :roll: I do not think they belong here in our homes or our inviroment I really dont have anything to back this statement up with except maybe the over population of Cane toads,Feral pigs,Rabbits and so on..I know that ppl do keep them and that is there choice to risk that.I myself would not cause I really cannot afford the fine.I have said this before in another thread,What is with human nature ? We all ways want what we cant have and we are never happy with whats in our own backyard.I love Australian wildlife and in my opinion you just cant beat it.

 

[CodeRed]

The discussion so far has presented a lot of very good reasons not to legallise the keeping of exotics. These reasons also appear to be backed up and supported by the scientific community.

So where are the pro exotic arguments? I cant see anything apart from the self gratification of a small number of people who want to keep them and the financial benefit to those who already keep them illegally.

So come on fellas, step up to the plate and give us some valid reasons to allow exotics.

 

[Lurk]

So where are the pro exotic arguments? I cant see anything apart from the self gratification of a small number of people who want to keep them and the financial benefit to those who already keep them illegally.


Good point CodeRed,Where are they? I do not beleive there is much more than self gratification.Ahhh the human race....But I would like to hear some good firm reasons to keep these exotic animals if there are any. :wink:

 

[Lurk]

So where are the pro exotic arguments? I cant see anything apart from the self gratification of a small number of people who want to keep them and the financial benefit to those who already keep them illegally.


Good point CodeRed,Where are they? I do not beleive there is much more than self gratification.Ahhh the human race....But I would like to hear some good firm reasons to keep these exotic animals if there are any. :wink:

 

[Sdaji]

It's always funny to see the comparison of natives outside their range and exotics. The fact that carpet pythons haven't established themselves in Melbourne doesn't for a moment mean that corn snakes couldn't either. Carpet Pythons have had access to south eastern Australia for about a zillion years. They have a southern limit enforced by climate. Corn snakes (just one of countless examples) have never had the opportunity to colonise the south east and until they do, we can't predict what will happen. I could go up to northern Australia and catch native fish, let them go down here in Melbourne and none would survive. That didn't stop the majority of our local natives being wiped out by species from overseas. I could let as many cassorawies as I wanted go down here and all would quickly die, but if you look around here, almost every bird is exotic. Looking at the south east is silly anyway as it doesn't have a particularly reptile friendly climate....

East QLD could well be colonised by countless exotic species, which could very well cause extinctions of other reptiles, as well as whatever they eat. Natives outside their range and exotics which have never had access to Australia are completely different and can't be compared.

I always cringe when I read the arguments along the lines of "We've stuffed things up with mammals, birds, fish and plants, why can't we do the same with reptiles?". Surely we should be smart enough to learn from others' mistakes.

 

[Magpie]

Natives outside their range and exotics which have never had access to Australia are completely different and can't be compared

I disagree there.
Why would any of the northern WA species not be a pest species in North queensland?
Yes, tropical species are unlikely to become a problem in temperate, alpine or mediteranean climates, but not vice versa.
You have to comapre apples to apples. Shinglebacks or bluetongues from south west WA could become established in Vic. As could any of the species from those areas.
Worse, they would pollute the native gene pool so you would never again know what was pure and what wasn't.

 

[zulu]

re no

Educational, i like grey kingsnakes that vibrate their tails like rattlesnakes its amazing,dont like the albino candy corns they look like something from an eastershow showbag :wink:

 

[Retic]

Magpie yes I agree, it's no good just talking about a species that couldn't survive in a given area because of the climate, what about the majority that could survive well outside their natural range ? Brisbane carpets could survive in FNQ or NT and Jungles could easily survive down here. The same applies to a great many species.
I do agree with Sdaji when he says this though
' I always cringe when I read the arguments along the lines of "We've stuffed things up with mammals, birds, fish and plants, why can't we do the same with reptiles?". Surely we should be smart enough to learn from others' mistakes.' My argument is always that we shouldn't use the environmental damage threat as a reason against them.

 

[CodeRed]

"My argument is always that we shouldn't use the environmental damage threat as a reason against them."

Why not? It is a perfectly valid argument. Prove to me (well not me personally, but the other 20 million people that live in Oz) that exotics are perfectly safe and wont damage our environment.

 

[Retic]

I can't possibly prove that. The problem is you are just lumping them all in together, there are a great many species that would be of little or no threat and others that COULD be considered a huge threat.

 

[Australis]

What Exotics would you consider to be of little or no threat?

I can't possibly prove that. The problem is you are just lumping them all in together, there are a great many species that would be of little or no threat and others that COULD be considered a huge threat.

 

[Retic]

Most land tortoises, many chameleons, various smaller snake species.

 

[CodeRed]

Yes I agree there MAY be safe species. But we thought cane toads were safe, didnt we?

As I alluded to previously, you would have to convince the general population (and politicians) that exotics should be legalised. This would require a bullet prove argument and be of some benefit (as in financial) to the rest of the community.

 

[Australis]

Most land tortoises, many chameleons, various smaller snake species.

So do you consider the following to be a threat?

Boas, Balls, Corns, Burms, Iguanas.

The Above are what i consider to be some of the most commonly kept exotics off licence in Australia.

Matt

 

[Retic]

What was the financial benefit to the general community for legalising the importation of exotic parrots ?
I'm not really that bothered one way or another, if they are legalised I will have some if they aren't then I wont. I do like debating it in a mature manner though ;-)