ok lets see how we go with this one...

Discussion in 'Reptile and Amphibian Identification' started by eipper, Oct 6, 2012.

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  1. GeckPhotographer

    GeckPhotographer Very Well-Known Member

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    We'll see, I don't think there's any line at all, it goes from light to dark, not from light to dark to less dark.
     
  2. vicherps

    vicherps Active Member

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    Ok fair enough if you can't see it. Look on the 2nd page on a closeup of presumably the same animal and notice the dark streak. Flickr: Scott Eipper's Photostream it is towards the bottom part of the page.
     
  3. eipper

    eipper Very Well-Known Member APS Veteran

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    I thought this snake would throw cat among the pigeons so to speak.... My first thought was punctulata but being on the edge of calligastra's distribution I thought I would attempt to key it out.

    Herein lies the problem certain features eg ventral markings, white edged (faintly and thin) dark streak point to calligastra while body size, and shape pointed to punctulata. So as the features were subjective I asked around and sent the pic to a couple of mates that have a lot more exp with Fnq tree snakes than I do. They both came back as 100% punctulata... It's just a slightly less well known form of a highly variable species.

    As to the identity of the frog well that might illustrate yet another problem. I will give you a little more time but there is a clue if you have seen a recent paper about Crinia.

    cheers
    Scott
     
  4. vicherps

    vicherps Active Member

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    Ok well there you go yeah I knew of that dark colour form of punctulata but got a bit confused as it does seem to posses calligastra like features. Thanks for the information. Is it possible to send a link to the recent paper about Crinia if it's online?
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  5. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 Guest

    The snake is definitely Dendrolaphis punctulata. The body shape is too robust, the eye is too small (twice diam of eye from snout to anterior edge of eye) and the invariably clear dark streak from the snout, through the eye and onto the neck of D. calligaster, appears tobeabse

    Blue

    PS Thought I posted this last night but must have fallen asleep before having done so. Best I read yhis page now and see what was said.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2012
  6. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 Guest

    I must be turning off my computer too quickly or something new as I have lost my last post as well. I now need to write out the rationale again. Could be something to do with the new (secondhand) laptop as I killed mine a couple of weeks ago.

    Given the location of the gecko, it reaffirms my basic choice which is Strophurus elderi.

    I think you gave a locality for the frog but before I check it, I would say possibly Geocrinia laevis. Probably wrong as you are taling about papers on Crinia.

    Micah, Thanks for pointing out my error.

    Blue

    EDIT: I do not have time to read a paper on Cinia at the moment. With Crinia being so variable, the best feature for ID is the male's call. Second best is location. Given the location I would revise my earlier ID to quite possibly Crinia signifera.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2012
  7. vicherps

    vicherps Active Member

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    I think the frog could be a signifera or another Crinia species but I think the gecko is a Gehyra sp but I could be wrong as I was with the snake.
     
  8. GeckPhotographer

    GeckPhotographer Very Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Micah with the gecko being a Gehyra.

    Head shape is flatter than Strophurus, no colour or pattern on nape area of anterior flanks which would be indicative of Diplodactylus (though head shape's wrong for that too, I just can't explain 'how' it's wrong), rostral scales are not as steeply sloping to form a sort of 'groove' between the upper portion of the two rostrals as in Hemidactylus and the head is less flattened than that of Hemidactylus.

    For the species I would say Gehyra dubia from A) Distribution. B) Gehyra dubia often lack prominent pattern which from a few pics taken by Kieran on this site seems even more prominent in the North of their range where pattern is more broken into flecks than larger bolder marking. Seeing just the head there is a faint dark stripe from above the ear through the eye which can range from prominent to near absent in the species, there is faint white and dark blotches over the head and nape which although very faint are consistent with the pattern this species generally have over the head area.

    I'll agree with the General consensus the frog is Crinia, I have read the paper which I assume Scott is talking about, as he was courteous enough to email it to me some time back (the Flinders one Scott?), and suggest Scott is referring to this being as recognized but as yet undescribed species of Crinia currently assigned to C.tinnula. Of course Scott can speak for himself if I'm wrong.

    Micah did Scott email you that paper, if not I can forward the one I got from him?

    - - - Updated - - -

    However I just had a talk to someone who did the call analysis on the species suggested in that paper who says that it's known only from one population at Coffs Harbour, not Evans Head..
     
  9. eipper

    eipper Very Well-Known Member APS Veteran

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    yes the frog is tinnula. What I was alluding to the problem of species being split. I was aware that presently the only location that had Crinia cf tinnula was Coffs Harbour. The point was to address what is xxx today might be yyy tomorrow.

    As to the gecko well I though that might of been the easiest of the lot it is Gehyra australis

    cheers
    scott
     
  10. -Peter

    -Peter Guest

    I dont sit comfortably with D. calligastra either. When I first saw the pic I thought it might be something from PNG.
     
  11. GeckPhotographer

    GeckPhotographer Very Well-Known Member

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    Nah the snakes definitely the easiest of the lot, it looks completely different from D.calligastra, Gehyra are crap to ID unless you are familiar with the species AT the location they were found or have them in the hand, from a head pic alone IDing between G.australis and G.dubia isn't very easy at all.
     
  12. vicherps

    vicherps Active Member

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    i realise the features between the 2 species morphologically and general build differ and the larger eye as Bluetongue1 has suggested. The green tree snake is a highly variable species and you can find the in colours such as blue,black,green, yellow with a grey head etc. Apparently this colour form is quite common in PNG according to what Mark O'Shea told me. Seems to be less so here maybe it is due to the more generally open habitats in Australia as opposed to New Guniea where there can be quite forest type habitat and being darker would give the ability for the snake to warm up from objects and less sunlight. Natural selection favours those with darker colouration and as a result the colour form is quite common in New Guinea.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I would really appreciate it if you could forward the Crinia paper to me Stephen. Also I would like to get back in contact with you on facebook and show some pictures of some of the new herps I have found and get your opinion on the shots.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I thought Gehyra australis distribution does not include Mount Isa could this be a range extension or is known and has been known for a while that australis distribution incorporates Mount Isa but i never knew just out of curiosity. I know that Gehyra dubia distribution covers the Mount Isa area. If Gehyra australis are there is it possibly they formed a population from being transported amongst building material from others areas in Australia.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012
  13. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 Guest

    There appears to be some dilation of lamellae on the ends of the digits, so that rules out a number of genera. My initial thoughts were possibly Gehyra or Hemidactylus due to the minimal pattern, then realised the animal was actually coloured up as the white ventrals contrasted with the grey. The head shape seemed too deep for a Gehyra so I looked for a diplodactyline with a plain grey head. It would have to be a bit of an exceptionable specimen of elderi not to have some markings further down the neck and chest, but given the CTS photo I suspected that might be the case again. The rostral scale does have a cleft in it but I cannot tell if it is fully divided. The scalation, as best I can see, matches that of D. elderi

    I can only really identify the frog as Crinia due to the marbled black and white belly typical of the genus along with its small size. The species was determined according to location.

    Blue
     
  14. vicherps

    vicherps Active Member

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    From what I can see there seems to be the absence of white spots on the dorsum that elderi possess and outside elderi distribution. Hemidactylus snout seems to be more flattened a bit more lengthen out and narrower in width than the Gehyra pictured here. I'm just presenting my opinion and I could be wrong and don't have anywhere near exp as you and I think you would have a better idea.
     
  15. GeckPhotographer

    GeckPhotographer Very Well-Known Member

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    eipper did say it was australis. Blue the Pupil is wrong for elderi, and the head's not too deep for Gehyra at all, far to flattened for elderi.
     
  16. vicherps

    vicherps Active Member

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    I agree with the pupil comment it does look different.
     
  17. butters

    butters Well-Known Member

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    There are elderi around mount Isa. Within 10km at least.
     
  18. vicherps

    vicherps Active Member

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    Within mt isa itself or close to it. Distribution maps certainly don't indicate they occur in mount isa. If your right their distribution needs to be updated.
     
  19. butters

    butters Well-Known Member

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    Distribution maps are rough guides. I have seen them myself on a number of occasions.
     
  20. vicherps

    vicherps Active Member

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    Thanks for the update.
     
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