Orange Pepper

Discussion in 'Australian Snakes' started by Variety, Aug 23, 2013.

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  1. The_Geeza

    The_Geeza Suspended Banned

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    Yes twice cause I pretended to be a purist (and I was usually drunk when I posted lol)....Back to me normal self now....and I don't appreciate ya post!
     
  2. onimocnhoj

    onimocnhoj Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone who keeps JAGS is a bad person, but people who do are somewhat supporting their history of smuggling in an indirect 'passive' fashion. Is it because they are established here now that we can forget the nasty ways they got to Australia? Do people with JAGS simply say, "I didn't smuggle them so I'm not doing anything wrong"

    The raw truth to purchasing a JAG is, "Do you support animal smuggling?" This applies to those wanting to breed them and to those just wanting a pretty pet. Ask yourself as you contemplate your next purchase. Then ask yourself if you don't mind the chance of buying a snake with co-ordination issues.

    When the next new crazy morph pops up overseas, how many will pass on the opportunity to own one? Would everyone look back at this JAG drama and say "Whoa, not this again". Even if the problems with a new morph are comparable to those associated with JAGS or worse, too many will crawl over broken glass to be the first to have a new morph in their collection.

    The other element to indirectly keeping the JAG problems alive are breeders. There are a few responsible breeders who I hope are honest with what they sell, but how do these breeders screen their customers? There is no way to tell if someone who purchases a JAG or sibling from a breeder won't on sell it as something else or breed it and call the progeny pure and so the confusion continues..

    If every keeper could have foreseen the dramas (genetically and socially) with these animals would they still have been in high demand when first offered? The answer is one thousand times YES because the cash spoke loud and clear.

    Any animals produced in captivity must be considered 'man-made' to a degree. The real question is 'what does man choose to make?'
     
  3. champagne

    champagne Well-Known Member

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    its funny how everyone cries about smuggled jags, zebras, granites ect but when it comes to exotic green tree pythons it always seems to be another story.... you can now even keep the exotic gtp in Queensland as long as you pay more money and upgrade your license of course, so even the authorities are happy to profit from reptile smuggling

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    were you there when your ''pure'' animals were taken from the wild? no? then its all hearsay that they are ''pure'' and even if you were how do you know that someone's pet jungle wasn't released, bred with a wild coastal and this was your ''pure'' wild caught coastal? you cant so you shouldn't be labelling them as being pure when you are selling them.... same argument.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  4. onimocnhoj

    onimocnhoj Well-Known Member

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    Mr btsmorphs..

    I personally only keep Australian green pythons for the same reasons and do not cry for people's uninformed or unconsidered choices. In QLD, all greens require a permit upgrade regardless of their nationality.

    It is true that 'purebred' animals are labeled this way with an amount of hearsay and only very few reputable breeders could be confident with the authenticity of their stock. Individuals breeding purebred animals have their reputations on the line with their claims. This confidence and history is then passed onto the customer to continue a pure line if they choose to do so. It is up to the purchaser to decide who they acquire their animals from when considering the worth of ones words.

    No one seems to want to put their hand up for the importation and or origin of JAGS in Australia, I doubt even the first smuggler new exactly what they had. The comparison you have made to educate Vixen is very weak as many of the well established lines in captivity have been around for as long as captive reptiles. It is so extremely unlikely that it by no means could be considered 'the same argument'..
     
  5. champagne

    champagne Well-Known Member

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    it all comes down to hearsay, you either trust the persons word you are buying off or not. unfortunately even some of the well known breeders are happy to do doggy stuff. Some of the people know exactly the line of the jags they got, just like the guys in the states knew exactly what albinos they were getting in return... no ones is going to stand up and say it was them, even if they did like everything else in this hobby it would all be hearsay anyway
     
  6. TrueBlue

    TrueBlue Very Well-Known Member

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    btsmorphs,-

    Come on now. When it boils down to it I think that you and these people that you are refering to know perfectly well that there are no true pure coastal jags, seriously no one could be so naive or stupid, (no offence intended). Its a bit like believing in the the tooth fariy.
     
  7. fishbot

    fishbot Active Member

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    You can’t use the hearsay argument to prove others wrong and prove yourself correct. Hearsay is inadmissible evidence, ie it’s not enough evidence to prove anything. Thus, if it’s all hearsay then we can’t believe anyone, therefore we can’t believe you.

    You’ve paradoxed yourself into a corner.
     
  8. champagne

    champagne Well-Known Member

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    learn to read mate makes yourself look very.... I said people have bred the original jags back to pure coastals and some of these lines are available in Australia. I also said unfortunately no one (this includes all the purist know it all's in Australia) will ever know the truth about the original jags expect the original breeder... there is so many back stabbing in this hobby of course someone will claim they know the true story. no pure jags, zebras or granites... I've even been told that Steve's axanthic coastal line and robs hypos were crosses, so if enough people say it does that make it the truth? anyway you guys keep saving the hobby from the crosses.
     
  9. Vixen

    Vixen Very Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but back to the start again, how do you know that any of the smuggled animals were pure Coastal jags, or am I missing something?
     
  10. TrueBlue

    TrueBlue Very Well-Known Member

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    Oh there would be pure blood jags overseas no dought, but they are IJ animals not coastals.
    The truth came out a number of years ago about the jags. it was all to do with paper work, or lack of it, that they were not originally coastals.
     
  11. champagne

    champagne Well-Known Member

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    would you like to know all the names involved, shipping dates and what port they came through as well.... lol
     
  12. Vixen

    Vixen Very Well-Known Member

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    I have absolutely no interest in the doings of smugglers fullstop, where did that come from? I just can't understand how (without you having inside knowledge) you can be so adamant and defensive that they are pure coastal Jags that were smuggled in. Noone but those people could possibly even know that, and as John mentioned, they still probably didn't even know what they had at the time. But you seem to, so all good, it's settled.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013
  13. swampie

    swampie Power Seller Power Seller

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    At the end of the day even if the original jags were pure coastals (I doubt it) there is no way in hell that you could say with any certainty that animals from that line are in Australia.
    They were smuggled into the country by dishonest crooks, that should be all the info you need to make a judgement about the purity of these animals....
     
  14. SamNabz

    SamNabz Very Well-Known Member

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    From the few threads you've been posting in of late, btsmorphs, you seem to try and make it out that you have great insider knowledge... Yet you never provide any references to your claims and/or how you came up with whatever rubbish you are posting. Not once.

    For example, this line here: "I said people have bred the original jags back to pure coastals and some of these lines are available in Australia." - please give us just a small indication of how you can say this with any certainty.
     
  15. TrueBlue

    TrueBlue Very Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to disapoint you btsmorhps, but the hypos I breed are pure coastal. DNA them if you like.
     
  16. champagne

    champagne Well-Known Member

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    some of simons rpm were dna and came back as coastals so are they pure as well?

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    yes I personally know of a ''pure coastal'' line of jags in Australia as do other people, there were swapped for pure albino darwins.... they weren't smuggled by crooks but a ''reputable'' breeder that is on here. No one is going to give you exact details/proof on an open forum.
     
  17. swampie

    swampie Power Seller Power Seller

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    Lol....weren't smuggled by crooks but a reputable breeder.....smugglers are dishonest crooks full stop.
    At least your posts are amusing...
     
  18. Bushman

    Bushman Very Well-Known Member

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    Really good discussion guys but please keep it civil.
     
  19. swampie

    swampie Power Seller Power Seller

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    Oh dear.....
     
  20. SamNabz

    SamNabz Very Well-Known Member

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    I ask for facts, he returns with a "yes I personally know of..". Amazing.

    Also, I didn't know that if you are a 'reputable breeder' you can't be labelled a crook for smuggling.
     
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