Poisonous or Venomous

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by saximus, Mar 9, 2011.

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  1. Is a Latin definition approriate in these enlightened times? Just asking... Many of those defs would have been written when understanding was poor...

    J
     
  2. slim6y

    slim6y Almost Legendary

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    Not entirely true - most snake venom (in Australian elapids) is able to be ingested - in other words, you could eat snake venom here - however, the risk is very high especially if you have a cut in your mouth!

    The snake venom is poisonous the snake IS NOT! The berry is (possibly) poisonous - the snake is NOT!
     
  3. Dannyboi

    Dannyboi Guest

    Not what I was getting at but I get you.
     
  4. Elapidae1

    Elapidae1 Very Well-Known Member

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    How are these facts, the fact is I gave you dictionary examples that clearly define RBB as a poisonous snake.
    Surely you can see that my conclusions are reasonable???
     
  5. Sdaji

    Sdaji Almost Legendary

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    Strange argument. Any chemical which can harm you is a poison. Clearly, venom is a poison, because it contains chemicals which can harm you. Clearly, venomous snakes are poisonous snakes.

    Being able to ingest something without harm doesn't mean something isn't poisonous. Plenty of things are poisonous if injected but harmless if swallowed. Kerosene is an example. You can drink it if you want to, it won't hurt you. Inject yourself with kerosene and things won't be pretty. Does that make a bottle of kerosene venomous?

    Saying that snakes aren't poisonous because they are venomous is like saying your pet is not an animal because it is a dog. How can it be an animal? It isn't an animal! It's a dog! How can it be two things at once? Well, it can, because a dog is a type of animal. Dog is more specific, but it is both a dog and an animal.

    Snakes are both venomous and poisonous. Venomous is more specific, but poisonous is perfectly correct.

    ...and yes, I have just become the idiot stick figure I posted a picture of earlier in the thread.

    Oh, and someone said you could inhale a venomous snake. Well, other than anything else that would mechanically block your lungs and asphyxiate you, but if you were to inhale just the venom it would be much more deadly than if you injected it. The lungs are designed to take air (oxygen) into your blood. If instead of air you put venom into them, you've just utilised an extremely efficient method of putting venom directly into your blood and distributing it throughout your body. Oops!
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  6. Waterrat

    Waterrat Almost Legendary

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    Excellent John, that should stop the argument once for all.
    .... or I'll get really poisonous! :evil:
     
  7. Elapidae1

    Elapidae1 Very Well-Known Member

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    Thankyou Sdaji I just wish I had your way with words
     
  8. slim6y

    slim6y Almost Legendary

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    Kerosene injected isn't a venom - it's just plain stupid...

    A venomous snake injects its VENOM which is a poison into you - there's no ifs no buts it's black and white - pure and simple!

    A snake is not poisonous like a toad is... A toad is poisonous as it does NOT inject its venom as it lacks venom, but produces a toxin which it secretes over its upper body. This is particularly DIFFERENT than a venom.

    Therefore, regardless of who worships the ground you walk on sdaji... you're plain and simply wrong and I've become 'that guy'...
     
  9. ecosnake

    ecosnake Well-Known Member

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    I ate a brown snake and I was poisoned :)
     
  10. Elapidae1

    Elapidae1 Very Well-Known Member

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    I don't worship anybody Slimey. I agree a snake is not poisonous like a toad, because a snake injects venom and for that reason can be considered a poisonous animal. Again I have given you two dictionary examples that back this. using your logic I could say that the cane toad isn't poisonous only it's toxic secretions are. No ifs no buts its black and white I'm right and your wrong.
    Did someone say your a school teacher?

    Ecosnake if your going to eat roadkill then maybe try and get it when it's fresh to avoid poisoning.
     
  11. Dannyboi

    Dannyboi Guest

  12. Elapidae1

    Elapidae1 Very Well-Known Member

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    Yes but so can Slimey
     
  13. grimbeny

    grimbeny Very Well-Known Member

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    As a self appointed mediator for this debate I have come to the following conclusion:

    Although the dictionary is probably not the best resource for this kind of thing, steve1 is the only person in this thread who has used more than their ego to justify their opinion. I think the dictionary definition is better than the uneducated opinion of anyone in this thread. I think steve1 can be declared the winner of the argument until someone can justify why the alternative definition is better than the one provided by the dictionary.
     
  14. saximus

    saximus Almost Legendary

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  15. impulse reptiles

    impulse reptiles Suspended Banned

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    some people on here that have been a member for a long time, still can't tell if its a boa, retic or a ball python in a picture, maybe your just too ''experienced''? just watch your spelling and don't say your from canada and youl be alright :lol:
     
  16. saximus

    saximus Almost Legendary

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    lol I was lucky enough to see that thread before most of the comments got deleted. If that was a real question I feel sorry for the guy
     
  17. slim6y

    slim6y Almost Legendary

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    Actually Grimmy... Grimmybear.... I have previously put down many references to this very argument on this very site... And as I chose not to use ego - but more 'logic'...

    Sorry Steve1... I didn't realise you'd been appointed the winner of the argument, otherwise I wouldn't have gone to bed last night and I would have found a million references to rub it in your face :)

    However... Let's go back to this:

    There's two words - both with similar, but tiny and perhaps subtle differences. These tiny and subtle differences are why there's TWO words...

    We're led to believe a snake can be eaten (providing it is prepared properly - although, even then, the snake still isn't poisonous, the bacteria associated with it are). If a snake can be eaten, it can't be considered poisonous. Surely...

    If a snake bites you - sure, there's a poison injected into you in the form of a venom...

    The same way that radiation poisoning is from radiation... It isn't a venom, it's the METHOD of poisoning (via high frequency electromagnetic waves, beta or alpha particles causing ionisation etc etc...).

    It's merely the method... Ego stroked... not a bit... I would just like everyone to be as right as I am all the time!
     
  18. ssssnakeman

    ssssnakeman Almost Legendary

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    I've always said the same sort of thing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  19. Necromanced

    Necromanced Not so new Member

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    "the poisonous fluid that some animals, as certain snakes and spiders, secrete and introduce into the bodies of their victims by biting, stinging, etc."
    Dictionary says that. Venoms are poison; people are saying that there are two words for a reason. Never heard of synonyms? Two words can be used for the same meaning. Then I suppose you could argue that with the word toxin, however, toxin is merely a collective/umbrella term for chemicals that can harm you; poison and venom come under what are toxins. No, I'm not saying venom/poison come under venom/poison, but I am saying they are used synonymously.

    Putting it into perspective, I suppose venoms are injected (and pls, don't start saying you can use a syringe to inject a poison just to be cantankerous) and poisons are secreted, as from toads etc.
    I guess it could also be said that venoms are used to subdue prey whereas poisons are used as a defense mechanism.
    The main difference (or what I consider to be the main difference) is that poisons are ingested, and venoms are directly introduced into the lymphatic system, which has a faster onset effect than poison could. The difference for poisons is that it has an effect on organisms on a molecular scale, in such terms that it disrupts the chemicals in, lets say for arguments sake, mitochondria, to destroy the organism in question. Two different places that each effect, again, a big difference.
     
  20. grimbeny

    grimbeny Very Well-Known Member

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    Slim, I agree with your points here. Snakes can be eaten with no ill effect. That is not being debated, everyone in this thread agrees with that. The topic being debated is which definition of poisonous is correct.

    Steve1's dictionary defines poisonous as:

    "producing or being able to inject a poison"

    with the specific example "poisonous snake"

    Looking through the scientific litterature I have seen snakes defined as poisonous:

    "The venom of poisonous snakes comprises a complex mixture of several proteins with other less significant constituents, resulting in principles capable of changing viable tissues."(Cesaretly & Ozkan, 2010)

    "A focal troop of free-ranging Hanuman langurs (Presbytis entellus) living in an open scrub forest around Jodhpur was observed mobbing poisonous snakes on two different occasions during field observations of about 4,109 h."(Srivastava, 1991)

    Now I am not saying that snakes should be reffered to as poisonous, venemous is a more precise term. The wide use of the term poisonous to describe snakes though means that it is sufficient to convey the intended meaning to all audiences.


    LITERATURE CITED

    CESARETLI, Y and OZKAN, O. Snakebites in Turkey: epidemiological and clinical aspects between the years 1995 and 2004. J. Venom. Anim. Toxins incl. Trop. Dis [online]. 2010, vol.16, n.4 [cited 2011-03-09], pp. 579-586 . Available from: <http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1678-91992010000400007&lng=en&nrm=iso>. ISSN 1678-9199. doi: 10.1590/S1678-91992010000400007.

    Srivastava A. 1991. Cultural Transmission of Snake-Mobbing in Free-Ranging Hanuman Langurs. Folia Primatol 56(2):117-120.

    PS - You know there is something seriously wrong with you when you go to this much effort for a debate that has absolutly no relevance to anyone.
     
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