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Yes but the people giving them more respected labels are not breeders like Snake Ranch. SR have no need to be putting sought after labels on animals that arent what they say they are.

Snake ranch is a large breeder of snakes no doubt and a highly reputable one, but I'm sure you will agree that there collection is not comprised of all wild snakes caught under permission.
These stock animals have come from many different sources from individuals and breeders all around australia (some captive, some wild caught and some with locales attatched. some true, some false). Unfortunately you cannot guarantee that these snakes are from specific locations nor can they be identified as specific sub species in the range of coastals, diamonds and integrades.

If the python was wild caught from gosford then its fair to say its more than likely a diamond, but unfortunately there is no real evidence to say that it is. Can anyone say with any certainty that my rhd womas, my normanton bhps, my elcho island childrens and my iron range gtps are from those specific locations. (not to mention the 100's of other labels that have been attached).
 
my way of thinking is: SR are basically the Australian Reptile Park so having a zoo licence their foundation breeder animals would have all been wild caught so they know exact locales. thats why I got my wheatbelts from there. i hope my way of thinking is right...

Actually many of their foundation animals have been captive bred
 
Cement,
you are exactly what this and other threads like it need, people with real experience who know what they are talking about. Speaking for myself, that's why I'm here, to learn from people withe the years of experience that I can never have because I got into it later in life. I wish more people like cement would contribute.
 
Actually many of their foundation animals have been captive bred
captive bred from known wild-caught specimens? Or captive bred from foundation animals sourced from your average Joe-Blow? How can anyone put a locale on an animal unless they are completely sure of its' origin?
 
How do I know my tinned corn is corn at all. You can't just live your life thinking everything you are told is false. Sure you should question things that don't make sence but if someone tells you something and it looks like it might add up why would you enter a debate about it?

SR have a lot to lose and little to gain by saying its a Gosford diamond when they could have said it was from further north. I've seen a Gosford diamond (Found in my family's shed in Holgate.) with similar markings. Are all the experts going to come out and tell me it must be someone's pet that escaped now? If an aapple looks like an apple and tastes like an apple why ask the farmer to prove its an apple?
 
Im really only thinking about my situation (having bought 2 SR wheaties) and not the original diamond, but the general consensus from this thread seems to be that there is NO GUARANTEE that my snakes actually did originate from the wheatbelt region.
Why does it matter? Because wheaties look better and cost more. I want what I paid for and thats what I expected from SR and had no reason to believe otherwise until this thread.
 
Hey thanks Norm for those kind words, just trying to make things a bit less muddied for others.
There are still a great many pure gosford diamonds in captivity. It is a matter of knowing who is who and history of the area. Lots of older guys here on the Central Coast have been breeding for donkeys years, from days when you could take a walk into the big paddock and take and keep whatever you wanted.
A lot of clutches from those days ended up in Vic pet shops, because at the time you could get big dollars selling down there. This was long before jags, sub species crossing and the morph scene.
Pure diamonds certainly aren't rare in captivity, but like the blurry line between diamond-integrade, and integrade -coastal country, there will always be a blurry line between what is considered diamond, and what is considered an integrade.
Even colour is very variable around here, ranging from very black, to very yellow, and even the yellow can be pale or bright or a cream colour. There are ones with white rossettes and others with yellow rossettes. I have even caught one (and put the photos up on this site i think) that was both black and yellow, and black and white in big patches down its body.
This photo is a pure locality Gosford high yellow diamond, check out the long cross body rossettes, just like the Snake ranch hatchy has. This one has what I call 'weak' banding, and is as close to banding as you would find on a Gosford diamond.
 

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Yes thankyou cement , a lot of good usefull info there :)
 
Cement I remember that diamond that had both yellow and white! Very unique. As a diamond lover I don't miss much that posted in regards to them or intergrades for that matter.
 
Thank you everyone for your interest in this little guy, we contribute to forums such as Aussiepythons to update fellow keepers on projects or interesting animals we have. In this instance we never intended to start such a heated debate on what constitutes an Intergrade or Diamond and hope this post does not reignite that same debate. We certainly never expected to have our honesty or reputation questioned over the origin of a single animal.

This hatchling was bred from a pair of quiet boring looking Diamond's originating from Gosford, they are known to be pure and posses no visual variance to suggest an animal from any other locality or subspecies was introduced in previous generations.

For arguments sake however, if it were to be an Intergrade or Darwin or Bredli, would it make this particular animal any less impressive? Would its colours be any less yellow? or lack of pattern any less intriguing? Ultimately, probably not. So then why would we represent it to be anything other than what it actually is? If we did in fact hatch a bright yellow Intergrade(not that we even breed Intergrades), there would be nothing gained by calling it a 'Gosford Diamond'.

There is so much about it that we are unable to explain and can only speculate along with everyone else. Its eye, skin and tongue colour, size of 'rosettes' and head pattern are all traits that contribute to it looking remarkably "un-Diamond", but does that mean it cannot be a Diamond? It is a one-of-a-kind animal that we hope will never look anything like a wild type Diamond as it matures! The less it looks like a Diamond the better!

The exciting prospect is that know one really knows how it will develop, only time will tell.
 
captive bred from known wild-caught specimens? Or captive bred from foundation animals sourced from your average Joe-Blow? How can anyone put a locale on an animal unless they are completely sure of its' origin?

You would have to ask them, all I know is many of their lines were not started from wild caught animals and that they were purchased from other breeders, this does not mean that the localities they sell are false!
 
Thankyou S/R for those words . It is an amazing snake and therefore no wonder that questions were asked . As with other projects there will be many awaiting further developments and I /we are sure you will keep us posted , when you feel it necessary . :)
 
Cement I remember that diamond that had both yellow and white! Very unique. As a diamond lover I don't miss much that posted in regards to them or intergrades for that matter.
Gday Norm, yep it was, and still is the only one I have seen like that. And being a wild snake, it raises a lot of questions that will never be answered. Like was it hatched like that, was it losing pigment etc. I am assuming that it was always and always will retain that pattern, otherwise I would probably expect to see more diamonds like that if changing colour was possible. Where I released it, I could go back every couple of days and see it still there basking, until the weather warmed up and it got hungry and took off for good. Diamonds are just as open to morphing like any other carpet snake.
 
Most unusual coloured Diamond (usually brown) hatchos turn out to be the highest and brightest yellow. You would have to think this example would turn out super bright.......

absolute cracker.....
 
Spectacular SR an another awesome project for the future, I am keen to see what you produce from it in years to come guys good luck.

cheers
Scott
 
Hey thanks Norm for those kind words, just trying to make things a bit less muddied for others.
There are still a great many pure gosford diamonds in captivity. It is a matter of knowing who is who and history of the area. Lots of older guys here on the Central Coast have been breeding for donkeys years, from days when you could take a walk into the big paddock and take and keep whatever you wanted.
A lot of clutches from those days ended up in Vic pet shops, because at the time you could get big dollars selling down there. This was long before jags, sub species crossing and the morph scene.
Pure diamonds certainly aren't rare in captivity, but like the blurry line between diamond-integrade, and integrade -coastal country, there will always be a blurry line between what is considered diamond, and what is considered an integrade.
Even colour is very variable around here, ranging from very black, to very yellow, and even the yellow can be pale or bright or a cream colour. There are ones with white rossettes and others with yellow rossettes. I have even caught one (and put the photos up on this site i think) that was both black and yellow, and black and white in big patches down its body.
This photo is a pure locality Gosford high yellow diamond, check out the long cross body rossettes, just like the Snake ranch hatchy has. This one has what I call 'weak' banding, and is as close to banding as you would find on a Gosford diamond.
I would say most of the wild Diamonds I have seen, between the Royal and the Watagans, are banded this way.

Was meant for Cements picture!
 
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I don't call myself a diamond expert but I have probably seen more wild diamonds then anyone else on this thread. I have been doing my own research on this subspecies for years and have many photos of wild diamonds, especially their head patterns as this is what I use to identify ones that I know are in an area and I re-catch.
I am licenced to catch and release in the Gosford shire, so I deal with Gosford locality diamonds on a regular basis.
The "pure diamond" look that many people believe is the norm (or what makes it pure) is the small perfect rossettes, neatly lined up, Fay's photo shows that.
This "look" is the exception rather then the norm (around Gosford). But I have never seen a banded diamond either. At best they are very weakly banded, with clusters of rossettes that form little cross body stripes (across the body, not parrallel to it). In my experience Gosford diamonds do not have any striping parrallel to the body or any marking that could be called banding. This type of pattern does occur further north of Gosford, and to my knowledge starts somewhere around the Treachery Beach area and goes north.
I see no reason to doubt Snake Ranch on this animal, and to be honest I asked them to sell it, but they declined!

If you take a look at this one mid body you will see the little cross body bands that are the norm for pure Gosford locality wild diamonds that I mentioned.

Banded diamonds have definitely been found in Gosford. There was a herper who used to live on up here on the coast who found one and posted the pic around.
 
Wow it's threads like this that made me stop coming to this site.
Not even a quarter of the people in this thread would even live in the gosford area.
As cement has said the "pure diamond" is most certainly not the norm in gosford I have seen several like the one cement posted a pic of.
I have even seen a few like this
a6usu5ez.jpg

In the area.
A lot of the wild hatchies I have found have also ranged from light brown (not as light as the SR hatchie) to dark brown almost black.
As stated many times before SR have no reason to claim it as pure if it was not the would be no gain in saying it was.
Snakes don't come from the Internet the come from the wild so with out people like cement doing their research with wild specimens most of the people on here would know anything about snakes.
 
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