Questions About Bell's Phase Monitors

[dragonlover1]

I can't find much info on lace monitors,are bell's phase produced from normal parents similar to central beardies producing hypo and leatherbacks from normal parents?
TIA for your help

 

[SpottedPythons]

Bell's phases are a locale and so are produced from Bell's parents. They are found in semi-arid regions of Northern NSW and QLD. Bell's phases cannot be produced randomly by two normals, but a normal and a bell's can crossbreed and create a bell's with a mix of normal and bell's patterning.

 

[dragonlover1]

thanks ,this is what I was trying to find out

 

[Bushfire]

The bells gene is a co dominant gene. In the wild it is more dominant in the areas mentioned above but can and does pop up in other areas. Ive found a few around putty. So is a normal x bells pairing, the clutch will a mixture but individuals will be one or the other not a blend.

 

[dragonlover1]

this is what I was wondering,I saw an ad for 7 normal and 3 bells.I didn't think it was 2 clutches but a mix similar to beardies ie: some hypo,some LB some normal.

 

[SpottedPythons]

I have seen a blend of Bell's and Normal, so I don't think it's a co-dominant gene, but it isn't recessive either. I think it's more like incomplete dominant.

 

[GBWhite]

Bell's phases are a locale and so are produced from Bell's parents. They are found in semi-arid regions of Northern NSW and QLD.

That's not quite right I live in Bellingen on the NSW Mid North Coast and they are very common, not just throughout our valley but also in the Nambucca / Macksville area to the south and west and north of Coffs Harbour. I'll add that they are stunning looking animals from around here. I don't think it can be referred to as "crossbreeding" either as they are the same species. It's far more likely in the wild for one with a normal pattern to mate with one with a Bell's pattern and produce a mixture of both than for 2 with the Bell's pattern to intentionally seek each other out as overall, normal pattern lacy's are far more prevalent than the Bell's phase.

Cheers,

George.

 

[SpottedPythons]

That's not quite right I live in Bellingen on the NSW Mid North Coast and they are very common, not just throughout our valley but also in the Nambucca / Macksville area to the south and west and north of Coffs Harbour. I'll add that they are stunning looking animals from around here. I don't think it can be referred to as "crossbreeding" either as they are the same species. It's far more likely in the wild for one with a normal pattern to mate with one with a Bell's pattern and produce a mixture of both than for 2 with the Bell's pattern to intentionally seek each other out as overall, normal pattern lacy's are far more prevalent than the Bell's phase.

Cheers,

George.

I use "crossbreeding" as a term to refer to Bell's and Normals interbreeding, even though it isn't technically correct as they are the same species. And as mentioned above they are most common in semi-arid NSW and QLD, but they can also be found in other places.

 

[GBWhite]

Hi SP.

The point I was making is that they are no more common in arid areas as the other locations where they are found (which is quite widespread throughout NSW and Qld) and. from personal experience the ones found in coastal areas and the New England Ranges are far more impressive looking than those found in arid area. I don't know if it could be refer to it as "interbreeding" either as they are just different colour morphs of the same species. I've been told by friends that are into breeding them that it is possible to get both normal colour morphs and Bells phase if you pair a Bells with a normal but it is no guarantee.

Not trying to cause an arguement just commenting on observations of wild ones I've encountered over many years of field work and conversations with friends that breed Lacyies.

All the best

George.

 

[pythoninfinite]

Very common around here too George, just north of Port Macquarie. I reckon they're a ratio of about one Bell's to two "normals" on our property, and I do see a few that have aberrant markings, between the two. We had a very big Bell's about 1.5m+ come onto the top lawn almost every day this summer, cleaning up scraps from magpie feeding in the morning.

Jamie

 

[SpottedPythons]

I use "crossbreeding" as a term to refer to Bell's and Normals interbreeding, even though it isn't technically correct as they are the same species. And as mentioned above they are most common in semi-arid NSW and QLD, but they can also be found in other places.

Hi SP.

The point I was making is that they are no more common in arid areas as the other locations where they are found (which is quite widespread throughout NSW and Qld) and. from personal experience the ones found in coastal areas and the New England Ranges are far more impressive looking than those found in arid area. I don't know if it could be refer to it as "interbreeding" either as they are just different colour morphs of the same species. I've been told by friends that are into breeding them that it is possible to get both normal colour morphs and Bells phase if you pair a Bells with a normal but it is no guarantee.

Not trying to cause an arguement just commenting on observations of wild ones I've encountered over many years of field work and conversations with friends that breed Lacyies.

All the best

George.

Hey George,
Apparently the genetics originated in semi-arid areas (though for evolutionary reasons we don't know). According to ARP they are most common still in QLD. It is possible to get both normals and Bell's in a clutch, but it is also common to get a mix that may ere slightly more towards Bell's or more towards Normals. The reason why some people believe they are co-dominants are because you wouldn't realise the animal is in fact a mix if you don't spot the signs (eg. extra speckles on the tail). I think they are incomplete dominants that will show some traits of both when interbred, though Bell's are a nature-bred morph and will naturally have stronger genes than most captive bred morphs.
Cheers, Justin

 

[GBWhite]

Hi Justin,

Interesting to here that it's believed that the genetics originated in semi arid areas. Can I ask where you got that info from? Unfortunately and no offence, considering I have encounter them on a regular basis over many years around here, up and down the north and mid north coast, amongst Sydney Sandstone, in the New England and western NSW I don't have a lot of trust in what the ARP say them being more common in Qld.

George

 

[SpottedPythons]

Hi George,
I got the info from ARP and some other books (mainly field guides). It seems to make sense, as in semi to arid areas nature would favour animals with even rates of heat gain and loss, which thick bands of contrasting colours would provide. The bands don't seem to be as good for camouflaging as the speckles of the normal phased lacies so there must be a reason why they look like that, and it seems to be an adaptation for dry climates.

The best,
Justin

 

[imported-varanus]

bell's phase can be Homozygous or heterozygous with the following: Homo x Homo =100% Homo Bell's; Homo x Hetero= 50% Homo and 50% Hetero; Homo x "Normal" =100% Hetero Bell's; Hetero x normal= 50% Hetero Bell's and 50% Normal; Hetero x Hetero = 25% Homo Bell's, 50% Hetero Bell's and 25% Normal phase.....from Danny Brown.

 

[GBWhite]

Yeah Justin, I wouldn't put too much faith in what the field guides say as a lot of the stuff is actually just duplicated from other earlier text which is based on historical information and not from first hand experience. I'm still not convinced that the Bell's phase morph is an adaption arising from a dry climate and if anything just speculation. I can see plenty of reasons for it to occur right across their range. Interesting topic though.

Cheers.
George.

 

[pinefamily]

Since we moved to the mid north of SA, I've only seen "normal" lacies so far, and not too many at all. When the weather warms, we'll check out the local park, where there is supposed to be a population.

 

[SpottedPythons]

Yeah Justin, I wouldn't put too much faith in what the field guides say as a lot of the stuff is actually just duplicated from other earlier text which is based on historical information and not from first hand experience. I'm still not convinced that the Bell's phase morph is an adaption arising from a dry climate and if anything just speculation. I can see plenty of reasons for it to occur right across their range. Interesting topic though.

Cheers.
George.

I'll try and get some first-hand experience with these Bell's... intruiging topic!

 

[dragonlover1]

we used to go camping at tellegherry state forest (near Barrington Tops)for many years,we always used to see a pair of normal lacies who would forage around the campsite.I used to have footage of them stealing sausages and climbing a tree with their ill gotten gains

 

[baker]

An interesting topic. As for the mode of inheritance, I was always under the impression that it is a recessive gene as Imported-varanus has pointed out above. However, I don't have anything to do with breeding or the genetic side of things and could be wrong. It certainly maybe co-dominant or display incomplete dominance, but I'll leave that for the people with experience breeding bells to answer that.

It's been pretty well covered above, but I figure I'll put in my field experience with this colour mutation to add to the conversation. While completing field work assisting a PhD study examining the impact of large varanids on the predation of loggerhead sea turtle nests, I encountered several bells phase lacies just adjacent to the coast. This included an individual about a meter or so long foraging just behind the first dune and the largest individual found during the trip measuring approximately 1.7 meters long off memory. I've attached below a photo of this large male and one of the smaller bells seen during the trip. Off memory our encounter rate was approximately 60% normal to 40% bells at the study site. I have also observed a bells individual on the Fraser Coast.

As George has said, I would take the information about the origin of the gene being an adaptation to drying climate with a grain of salt without any primary literature to back it up. While it is possible that a drying climate may have played apart in it, several other factors including just random chance may have been the driver behind it. It is also interesting to consider if it truly was an adaptation to a drying climate, why isn't a similar patterning more commonly seen across other large arid and semi-arid varanaids? It is certainly interesting to ponder what has driven the evolution of the bells phase and what is the ecological significance (if any) of the patterning.

Cheers, Cameron

Lace monitor (Varuanus varius) by Cameron Baker, on Flickr

Lace monitor (Varanus varius) by Cameron Baker, on Flickr

 

[saximus]

There was a lot of discussion on here a long time ago about the mode of inheritance. I actually think a lot of people were leaning toward it being dominant. Here is one of the threads