Re freezing

[Rlpreston]

Wow, is it a full moon tonight or something? This place is on fire!


As an interesting anecdote;
I have thrown out rats I left in the car a couple of hours 'just in case' but then just the other day I re-heated dim sims off the bench from lunch time and are them for dinner. And last week I re-heated 3 day old butter chicken :O lol
Gross, I know. It's my not so secret shame now.


I would imagine (just my thoughts though) that the far hardier digestive system of a snake could handle things that would cause a human a great deal of harm. Whether it would handle a re-frozen rat? I have no idea, I didn't risk it but I wouldn't think it insane if someone did.

 

[Senator358]

I have now included a signature for everyone's benefit. Please take note as I wouldn't want anyone getting the wrong idea as to what is fact and what is opinion.

 

[Rlpreston]

I have now included a signature for everyone's benefit. Please take note as I wouldn't want anyone getting the wrong idea as to what is fact and what is opinion.

No signatures on the iPhone app.

Now I'll never know!

 

[Senator358]

Here you go mate...wouldn't want anyone to miss out lol

I am bored prefixing everything I say with "I think" or "in my opinion". Everything I say is my opinion; the only thing of which I am certain is that there is very little of which one can be certain.

 

[Sdaji]

Given the topic, there haven't been enough death threats to bring this thread to the appropriate level of intensity. We're not talking about politics or religion or any other bland topic everyone is comfortable with, this is snake feeding. C'mon, where's your spirit?

My 2c is that you'll usually get away with it, but it's a risk, especially with pinkies and smaller sizes as TrueBlue said.

The dangers of refreezing food are usually overstated, but whole animals rot faster than pieces of meat like the stuff we eat. A whole animal isn't just a piece of meat, it is filled with all sorts of things including lungs (exposed to air and non sterile) and a digestive system (utterly loaded with bacteria and partially digested food which bacteria utterly thrive on). Animal skin is also covered in bacteria, and freezing causes crystals to form, which makes the skin permeable, letting bacteria inside. The same thing happens to the walls of the digestive system.

When we prepare meat for ourselves it is chopped out of the animal and is initially sterile (which is part of why it lasts longer than a whole animal), we then cook it which sterilises it, and even then we get told by the health department that we should *never* eat refrozen food. I actually sometimes meat which was refrozen as long as it was only thawed briefly between freezings and eaten straight after being rethawed, but I wouldn't be keen to use refrozen whole animals.

As long as they're only thawed briefly, larger refrozen rats (or other whole animals) will usually be okay, but I wouldn't use them. I'd strongly recommend against using smaller sizes - their skin is thinner and once thawed the first time will rapidly let bacteria through, and the smaller size means the bacteria doesn't take as long to colonise and toxify the entire animal. I'm not surprised that TrueBlue has mainly seen deaths in snakes fed small refrozen rats. Keep in mind that if they are sometimes rotten enough to kill a snake, they will often be rotten enough to make the snake worse off, but snakes being what they are you might not be able to tell. If they're sitting there feeling good they don't smile, they just sit there. If they're sitting there with food poisoning they won't complain or frown, they'll probably just sit there, and you'll say "Oh, it was fine". I know of snakes eating some pretty old feed and being okay, but I also know of snakes getting knocked around and in some cases dying from rats which had sat out too long. It will depend on heaps of things including how fresh the rat was before it was frozen in the first place (some producers get them in quickly, others take quite a few hours between killing, sorting, bagging and getting them into the freezer, and some have better freezers than others, etc.). All animals have plenty of bacteria in their digestive systems, but the quantity and species vary. If it was a rat which happened to have a lot of bad bacteria your snake might suffer, if it happened to have less quantity and/or less nasty species of bacteria you might be fine. Snakes can handle more than we can, but they have limits, and it's a risk. Then again, we all take risks every day.

Of course, your snake, your rat (or was it quail?), your money, your choice.

 

[RSPcrazy]

I never re-freeze my rodents, it's a risk I'm not willing to take, especially since the individual price of my pythons range from $200 - $9000, an indavidual rat can cost between $1 - $20. I'd much rather loose $20 worth of rat, then $200 or $9000 worth of python.

The reason why I don't re-freeze, is because a couple of years back, a mate of mine with quite a large collection, ended up loosing around 60 pythons (from memory, so give or take some pythons) due to feeding re-frozen rodents.
He would defrost his rodents by taking them out of the freezer in the morning and feeding them at the end of the day, but a lot of his pythons didn't eat that day, so he re-froze them. Now, I don't remember if he tried feeding again the next day, or if it was a week later, but after feeding the pythons with the re-frozen rodents, although many of them didn't die, around 60 of his pythons (of various sizes) did die.

That was plenty of proof for me, so I never re-freeze.
When it comes to my pythons, if there's a risk of something going wrong, I try to avoid it. Especially since our captive pythons have a weaker immune system then wild pythons, due to being born into near sterile environments and being kept in near sterile environments throughout there lives, while wild pythons are born in very unsterile environments and continue to live in unsterile environments throughout there lives, which would help them deal with higher levels of bacteria.

 

[Muzman]

I reckon if it doesnt smell off then it is good. My gut never complains. Dont think snakeys will either.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Gee, there's some wierd reasoning going on here. yes, Senator, I am (reasonably) old, and have kept hundreds of snakes in the last 50+ years. I was also a professional taxidermist at the WA Museum for 30+ years, ehich gives me some fair idea of what happens to whole animals when they die, or when they're thawed after freezing. As one previous post states, the digestion of snakes is VERY different to that of humans. Humans chew their food to pulp and mix it with saliva, which begins the enzyme-related digestion processes even before it's swallowed, so the food is mush even before it gets to the stomach, where it is immediately mixed with strong hydrochloric acid by active peristalsis to further break it down. This is a process that can take as little as a few seconds to begin, and it advances very quickly.

Snakes, on the other hand, swallow their (sometimes enormous) meals whole. They crawl off to a quiet place where their relatively very slow digestion begins. They do not have the active peristalsis that mammals have, so the digestive processes are relative very slow. It can take even a few days before the stomach juices break through the gut wall of the prey animal (this is temperature dependent), so for quite a few days the food item, in the snake's stomach, is rotting from the inside before the stomach acid takes over and cleans things up. Unlike mammals, this is not a process that takes minutes or hours, it can take days at least, and in extreme cases, a week or two. To suggest that a few hours thawed makes any difference to a python's digestive system is ridiculous. You only have to experience a regurg of a very fresh meal eaten a few days before to know that there is a fight going on between the snake's digestion and the normal break-down of the rodent tissues.

RSPcrazy, there must have been other factors involved in the death of 60 pythons from feeding re-frozen rodents. There will be very little difference between the gut flora of a wild vs captive snake, as far as immune responses go. Our captive pythons do not eat sterile food - as soon as they've had one feed, they're on their way to equality with their wild counterparts internally.

By the way, I'm not trying to make it compulsory for people to re-freeze uneaten food. It's a free country so it's keeper's choice. All I'm trying to do is look at the logic of some of the arguments put up here. Senator suggests he's in the food police business, that's fine. But to equate human digestion and sensitivities to that of snakes is simply a mistake.

Jamie

Jamie

 

[Bart70]

Jamie,

I wish I had your persistence, patience, and passion ......and for the betterment of those amongst us that want to learn I am grateful that you still have them.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Thanks Bart & Darlyn ! Those traits, combined with a rather thick skin, seem to be necessary when dealing with some in the herp world! I guess the reason I'm so pendantic sometimes is that I've made a lot of mistakes myself in years gone by, and learned much just by observation, which is about all we had until the internet came along. There's always a tendency for (especially) new keepers to manage their reptiles as they would a mammal or a bird, but of course their physiologies are very different. Likewise, there's a tendency to differentiate between captive-bred and wild animals in a number of ways, when in fact they are not very different at all. Snakes haven't been "dumbed down" by hundreds of generations of captive breeding (except those genetically compromised by mixed species breeding), and although the prognosis for any relocated animal is apparently poor according to some studies I've read, I believe that any captive-bred snake which is natural to the environment into which it is released will have the same chance of survival as a wild snake released under the same circumstances. Captive snakes have not lost their primary instincts in my opinion.

This is really a massive subject, about which we know only very little. Even the matter of some parasites - worms and ticks for example - always touted as negatives for our reptile pets. Of course they can be a problem if the snake's health is otherwise compromised, but wild snakes live their entire, sometimes very long, lives with these creatures as internal and external companions. While I'm not, of course, suggesting that we can be casual about these things, we could ask ourselves if they are the big problem many keepers think they are. Just now, for example, there are studies going on about the role things like intestinal worms play in human immunity, and I believe that conditions such as asthma and allergies are less of a problem when human test subjects are innoculated with intestinal worms. It may be that the immune system is kept awake and on guard when it perceives a threat, and becomes less active when there are no ever-present threats...

All stuff to think about as more & more people, with less & less understanding of these creatures, decide that keeping reptiles is for them!

Jamie

 

[andynic07]

Thanks Bart & Darlyn ! Those traits, combined with a rather thick skin, seem to be necessary when dealing with some in the herp world! I guess the reason I'm so pendantic sometimes is that I've made a lot of mistakes myself in years gone by, and learned much just by observation, which is about all we had until the internet came along. There's always a tendency for (especially) new keepers to manage their reptiles as they would a mammal or a bird, but of course their physiologies are very different. Likewise, there's a tendency to differentiate between captive-bred and wild animals in a number of ways, when in fact they are not very different at all. Snakes haven't been "dumbed down" by hundreds of generations of captive breeding (except those genetically compromised by mixed species breeding), and although the prognosis for any relocated animal is apparently poor according to some studies I've read, I believe that any captive-bred snake which is natural to the environment into which it is released will have the same chance of survival as a wild snake released under the same circumstances. Captive snakes have not lost their primary instincts in my opinion.

This is really a massive subject, about which we know only very little. Even the matter of some parasites - worms and ticks for example - always touted as negatives for our reptile pets. Of course they can be a problem if the snake's health is otherwise compromised, but wild snakes live their entire, sometimes very long, lives with these creatures as internal and external companions. While I'm not, of course, suggesting that we can be casual about these things, we could ask ourselves if they are the big problem many keepers think they are. Just now, for example, there are studies going on about the role things like intestinal worms play in human immunity, and I believe that conditions such as asthma and allergies are less of a problem when human test subjects are innoculated with intestinal worms. It may be that the immune system is kept awake and on guard when it perceives a threat, and becomes less active when there are no ever-present threats...

All stuff to think about as more & more people, with less & less understanding of these creatures, decide that keeping reptiles is for them!

Jamie

I guess the proof is in the pudding so to speak, with that many captive snakes going missing for months or even years at a time then being found in good health.

 

[wokka]

In the wild if a snake dies from food poisoning its gone. In captivity it is there to remind you that you took the risk and failed. The risk of food poisoning is low and will depend upon the health status of the snake, the health status of the food item and the environmental perameters before and during digestion. Most keepers expect their snakes to live for 15 plus years. In the wild the AVERAGE is probably between 1-2 years with most dying before the first year. In captivity we aim for best practice be it temperature, food, water, internal parisites, external parrisite, or predation. We know some snakes will survive if we depart from the accepeted normal parameters but as we move away from the norm we increase the risk. For example; pythons generally need access to say 30C but some individuals will survive with access to only say 25C. Do you take the risk of running lower temperatures to save on power? If you do, you increase the chance of resporatory disease and death. A snake kept at 25C will not definitely die, but the chance is greatly increased. I think the risk of feeding refrozen food increases the chance of food poisoning.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

In the wild if a snake dies from food poisoning its gone. In captivity it is there to remind you that you took the risk and failed. The risk of food poisoning is low and will depend upon the health status of the snake, the health status of the food item and the environmental perameters before and during digestion. Most keepers expect their snakes to live for 15 plus years. In the wild the AVERAGE is probably between 1-2 years with most dying before the first year. In captivity we aim for best practice be it temperature, food, water, internal parisites, external parrisite, or predation. We know some snakes will survive if we depart from the accepeted normal parameters but as we move away from the norm we increase the risk. For example; pythons generally need access to say 30C but some individuals will survive with access to only say 25C. Do you take the risk of running lower temperatures to save on power? If you do, you increase the chance of resporatory disease and death. A snake kept at 25C will not definitely die, but the chance is greatly increased. I think the risk of feeding refrozen food increases the chance of food poisoning.

Ha Warwick, I've refrozen a few of your rats over time, and never had a problem! Well, there are several factors which MAY serve to increase overall risk, and probably a major one will be the temperatures at which the frozen food is stored in the longer term in the the first place. If you buy commercially bred rodents, you have no idea whether they've been handled correctly during packing and shipping... and there's one company which is notorious for supplying pet shops with semi-rotten rodents (not Rodentfarm !) Then, many "icebox" type freezer compartments in older fridges are likely to be well above the recommended temps of -18C or colder (mine run at -20C). The animals are probably below par even before they are thawed the first time. Then, on the other hand, if you have a slow feeder, and someone says leave the rodent in overnight... if the snake doesn't eat the food item until 8am the next morning, is it putting itself at risk? As someone who has worked with whole dead animals of all sorts and sizes for most of his working life, I reckon I can judge pretty well what is likely to be risky - and by the way, I'm not suggesting for a moment that animals which are noticeably "off" be used as food, except for Varanids.

I breed my own rodents, they are placed into the freezer in single layers as soon as they lose their body heat. I thaw them out in hot water (takes up to 20 mins for a largish rat). If it is not consumed by the time I have finished the feeding round, and there is no interest, I will refreeze that night. So the animal was known to be fresh when frozen, was properly stored, was thawed quickly and refrozen within 2-3 hours. Now this may be poor practice for human foodstuffs, but I guarantee that it will do a snake no harm to reoffer that rodent at a future time... I don't do this with pinkies or fuzzies because they go to mush very quickly, and I probably wouldn't do it with a rodent that had been left in an enclosure for 12 hours. But a bag of rats, left out of a freezer for some time, but still quite cold to the touch, can be refrozen without risk.

As I said, it's not compulsory to believe me, all I'm suggesting is that some of the arguments here are illogical, and it's a mistake to equate snake digestion with human digestion - whole animal ingesters with slow digestive processes cannot be compared with masticators like humans.

I should say Warwick, that I agree with you that the AVERAGE life of a wild snake is very short, but I don't in any way think this is linked to refrozen food - I can't see the relevance here! That most snakes don't get past their first year is largely due to genetic weakness, predation, and a range of environmental factors which bring an end to their lives. Nothing to do with unsuitable food.

Jamie

 

[andynic07]

I think that your point about leaving the rat in an enclosure overnight is a very good point Jamie. A lot of people suggest doing that for problem feeders and there is not much difference with this in my opinion.

 

[wokka]

I should say Warwick, that I agree with you that the AVERAGE life of a wild snake is very short, but I don't in any way think this is linked to refrozen food - I can't see the relevance here! That most snakes don't get past their first year is largely due to genetic weakness, predation, and a range of environmental factors which bring an end to their lives. Nothing to do with unsuitable food.

Jamie

Hi Jamie,
I am not suggesting that many animals die in the wld from unsuitable food but i am sure some do. My guess is the majority contribute to the circle of life through predation and a small proportion die due to genetic weakness which may predispose them to negative influences of unsuitable food. they die from suboptimal conditions.
I to have refrozen food for later use but when advising on a public forum, which often includes novices, i say dont refreeze, because often novices dont remember all the qualifications which go with the statements.
The relevance of comparing life span in captivity vs wild is to demonstrate that in captivity we strive for excellence, which requires exposing the animal to far less risk than that forced upon wild animals.

 

[Senator358]

Ha Warwick, I've refrozen a few of your rats over time, and never had a problem! Well, there are several factors which MAY serve to increase overall risk, and probably a major one will be the temperatures at which the frozen food is stored in the longer term in the the first place. If you buy commercially bred rodents, you have no idea whether they've been handled correctly during packing and shipping... and there's one company which is notorious for supplying pet shops with semi-rotten rodents (not Rodentfarm !) Then, many "icebox" type freezer compartments in older fridges are likely to be well above the recommended temps of -18C or colder (mine run at -20C). The animals are probably below par even before they are thawed the first time. Then, on the other hand, if you have a slow feeder, and someone says leave the rodent in overnight... if the snake doesn't eat the food item until 8am the next morning, is it putting itself at risk? As someone who has worked with whole dead animals of all sorts and sizes for most of his working life, I reckon I can judge pretty well what is likely to be risky - and by the way, I'm not suggesting for a moment that animals which are noticeably "off" be used as food, except for Varanids.

I breed my own rodents, they are placed into the freezer in single layers as soon as they lose their body heat. I thaw them out in hot water (takes up to 20 mins for a largish rat). If it is not consumed by the time I have finished the feeding round, and there is no interest, I will refreeze that night. So the animal was known to be fresh when frozen, was properly stored, was thawed quickly and refrozen within 2-3 hours. Now this may be poor practice for human foodstuffs, but I guarantee that it will do a snake no harm to reoffer that rodent at a future time... I don't do this with pinkies or fuzzies because they go to mush very quickly, and I probably wouldn't do it with a rodent that had been left in an enclosure for 12 hours. But a bag of rats, left out of a freezer for some time, but still quite cold to the touch, can be refrozen without risk.

As I said, it's not compulsory to believe me, all I'm suggesting is that some of the arguments here are illogical, and it's a mistake to equate snake digestion with human digestion - whole animal ingesters with slow digestive processes cannot be compared with masticators like humans.

I should say Warwick, that I agree with you that the AVERAGE life of a wild snake is very short, but I don't in any way think this is linked to refrozen food - I can't see the relevance here! That most snakes don't get past their first year is largely due to genetic weakness, predation, and a range of environmental factors which bring an end to their lives. Nothing to do with unsuitable food.

Jamie

I have read all your posts now Jamie and I agree with them in theory however, as I have said in all my posts (deleted or not), it is best to make people aware that it may harm your snake.
When you are giving the advice that it is absolutely fine to feed a snake re frozen food you are not taking into account any of the variables that a new keeper may have subjected the food too.
You and I may breed our own rats or mice and know how they were handled and kept after death. A novice keeper that buys rats from the local pet shop does not. Then there is the point that the OP did not say how long the food was defrosted for. Does overnight mean 4,6,8,12 or 24 hours? Did they smell? Where were they when they were defrosted?
As I have stated all along is it not better to give a warning that it can be dangerous (my opinion!) and let them decide for themselves or, is it better to take your stance and say that it will be 100% fine and other peoples opinions are questionable purely on your word? If you could in any way be held accountable for a keeper making a mistake and feeding a re frozen rodent that was not handled properly and it did kill there reptile would would you still be 100% convicted to your beliefs?
By the way people are here to give there opinions and that is their right. In the end you have given your credentials and history but have yet to put any facts to your stance. Therefore, is it not also your opinion and not 100% fact?

 

[andynic07]

I have read all your posts now Jamie and I agree with them in theory however, as I have said in all my posts (deleted or not), it is best to make people aware that it may harm your snake.
When you are giving the advice that it is absolutely fine to feed a snake re frozen food you are not taking into account any of the variables that a new keeper may have subjected the food too.
You and I may breed our own rats or mice and know how they were handled and kept after death. A novice keeper that buys rats from the local pet shop does not. Then there is the point that the OP did not say how long the food was defrosted for. Does overnight mean 4,6,8,12 or 24 hours? Did they smell? Where were they when they were defrosted?
As I have stated all along is it not better to give a warning that it can be dangerous (my opinion!) and let them decide for themselves or, is it better to take your stance and say that it will be 100% fine and other peoples opinions are questionable purely on your word? If you could in any way be held accountable for a keeper making a mistake and feeding a re frozen rodent that was not handled properly and it did kill there reptile would would you still be 100% convicted to your beliefs?
By the way people are here to give there opinions and that is their right. In the end you have given your credentials and history but have yet to put any facts to your stance. Therefore, is it not also your opinion and not 100% fact?

Wow, I have had a look back through the thread and you have had a lot of posts deleted.
That aside some of your points have been logical and you have seemed to swing around from it being downright dangerous for a snake to eat the rats to there is a small risk so I think we are all on the same page now that there is a small risk and then the only differences are whether we would take the risk or not. Jamie has offered up some facts but also his experience is anecdotal evidence and this has to count for something as well. You are right in stating that there was some facts missing before an answer was given but some of them need to have a degree of common sense applied. Feeding a snake something with sharp things attached has a very small chance of damaging the snakes throat or gut but we don't place our prey into a mincer and put it into rat sausages(although they were once on the market). Don't take this the wrong way just pointing out that we are all an the small page basically.

 

[Senator358]

Yes I think this thread probably has come full circle now and we have all got basically the same idea. I just hope that someone else that comes along and reads it will be able to make sense of it all.

 

[RSPcrazy]

Just now, for example, there are studies going on about the role things like intestinal worms play in human immunity, and I believe that conditions such as asthma and allergies are less of a problem when human test subjects are innoculated with intestinal worms. It may be that the immune system is kept awake and on guard when it perceives a threat, and becomes less active when there are no ever-present threats...

All stuff to think about as more & more people, with less & less understanding of these creatures, decide that keeping reptiles is for them!

Jamie

I can comment on this from personal experience, as I have lived with intestinal worms for the past 10 years, I have only recently (in the past 8 months) been able to finally rid myself of these evil, life ruining things.

I don't have asthma, but my allergies had been going crazy over the past 10 years. If I was to catch the common cold (which happened quite regularly. I would become sick every 2 months on average), I would become dramatically sick for 1-2 weeks. My immune system was almost non existent.
I had become hyper sensitive to most foods, but the worst part, is I wasn't able to absorb propper nutrients from foods I was eating, as the worms were eating my food before I could. I also couldn't gain any wait, I was stuck at 52kg for many years. After finally ridding myself of them 8 months ago, I rapidly gained 20kg and that number is still rising. I also haven't been even slitely sick over the past 8 months. I look and feel much healthier since ridding myself of theses things.

 

[littlemay]

By the way people are here to give there opinions and that is their right. In the end you have given your credentials and history but have yet to put any facts to your stance. Therefore, is it not also your opinion and not 100% fact?

Seems pretty factual to me..

the digestion of snakes is VERY different to that of humans. Humans chew their food to pulp and mix it with saliva, which begins the enzyme-related digestion processes even before it's swallowed, so the food is mush even before it gets to the stomach, where it is immediately mixed with strong hydrochloric acid by active peristalsis to further break it down. This is a process that can take as little as a few seconds to begin, and it advances very quickly.

Snakes, on the other hand, swallow their (sometimes enormous) meals whole. They crawl off to a quiet place where their relatively very slow digestion begins. They do not have the active peristalsis that mammals have, so the digestive processes are relative very slow. It can take even a few days before the stomach juices break through the gut wall of the prey animal (this is temperature dependent), so for quite a few days the food item, in the snake's stomach, is rotting from the inside before the stomach acid takes over and cleans things up. Unlike mammals, this is not a process that takes minutes or hours, it can take days at least, and in extreme cases, a week or two. To suggest that a few hours thawed makes any difference to a python's digestive system is ridiculous. You only have to experience a regurg of a very fresh meal eaten a few days before to know that there is a fight going on between the snake's digestion and the normal break-down of the rodent tissues.