Red-bellied black or small-eyed snake?

Discussion in 'Reptile and Amphibian Identification' started by NorthSouthWales, Nov 10, 2013.

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  1. NorthSouthWales

    NorthSouthWales New Member

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  2. elapid@

    elapid@ Very Well-Known Member

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    Rbb mate probably after frogs

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    They also get trapped in there found a few dead ones in the past
     
  3. Firepac

    Firepac Subscriber Subscriber

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    Given the red colour appears on the lower lateral scales, ( which it doesn't in small eyeds) I would say RBBS.
     
  4. NorthSouthWales

    NorthSouthWales New Member

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    Thanks for the replies. This morning that snake was gone but we found a smaller version in the pool:

    20131110094745_zps66ecc1eb.mp4 Video by Ericzzzz | Photobucket

    I wonder if that's a newborn baby of the first one and if it'll be able to get out of the pool without any help. The water level's pretty low atm.
     
  5. Bushman

    Bushman Very Well-Known Member

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    It's too hard to make a call on which species it is from the footage shown imo. Although it looks superficially more like a Red-bellied Black Snake due to the red underside it could be a Small-eyed Snake.
    The first specimen would not be the parent of the second specimen, as adults are considerably bigger than that. The animal that is still in the pool will probably need assistance in getting out. One of the safest ways to do this is to put a branch in the pool next to it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2013
  6. $NaKe PiMp

    $NaKe PiMp Very Well-Known Member

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    parents dont hang around with the offspring
     
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  7. NorthSouthWales

    NorthSouthWales New Member

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    Thanks, both. I've put a branch in the pool that it can easily climb up to get out. So far, it hasn't moved much yet.
     
  8. Bushman

    Bushman Very Well-Known Member

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    You're welcome mate. Has the snake used the branch to get out yet? If not you could use a pool scoop to get it out with little danger to yourself. If it is a Red-bellied Black Snake it's not an aggressive species and since it's been in the pool for a while and it's only ~24 degrees, cloudy and overcast where you are, it probably won't move fast because it's body temp is most probably quite cool. If you're not confident doing this then just ring WIRES or SnakeCatchers.com
     
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  9. NorthSouthWales

    NorthSouthWales New Member

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    I did exactly that, because I didn't want it to drown or otherwise die overnight. This is what happened next:

    20131110160752_zps22cdac61.mp4 Video by Ericzzzz | Photobucket

    It's shaky because I zoomed in a lot. The ants gave it hell at first, but that seemed to stop after it hid under the pot. It's probably still there.
     
  10. Trimeresurus

    Trimeresurus Guest

    I wish I could have 2 red bellies turn up at my house over 2 days.
     
  11. Gusbus

    Gusbus Well-Known Member

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    the red belly doesn't like the ants
     
  12. Bushman

    Bushman Very Well-Known Member

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    Well done!
    That looks more like a Small-eyed Snake (Cryptophis nigrescens) to me.
    Reasons being, the snout tapers towards the front rather than being more broad and rounded like in a Red-bellied Black Snake. Also, it looks like it has relatively small eyes compared to the large eyes of a RBB. How big were it's eyes?
    There are a few more things that make me think that it's C. nigrescens. Namely, the belly of the second specimen in the pool has a uniform red colouration, whereas in RBB's the belly scales are conspicuously edged with black giving it effectively black belly bands. The red colouration in RBB's is also strongest on the lower lateral scales and sides of the belly scales and becomes paler towards the centre of the belly.
    I also think that the behaviour i.e movements of the rescued specimen look more like that of C. nigrescens to me, as it is desperately trying to seek shelter underground and this is more typical of this species, which is nocturnal and usually found under rocks etc. thus the more pointed snout and burrowing behaviour.
     
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  13. NorthSouthWales

    NorthSouthWales New Member

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    The eyes of nr 2 look small to me:


    SESoriginal.jpg SESoriginal2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2013
  14. Bushman

    Bushman Very Well-Known Member

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    The eyes look relatively small to me as well, as can be seen in those pics. I can confidently say that is definitely a Small-eyed Snake (Cryptophis nigrescens) due to eye size, head shape and behaviour as detailed in my previous post.
    I think that both specimens are in fact C. nigrescens because if you look closely at the first specimen in the filter trap, you can see another feature that is often characteristic of this species that can be used to distinguish between them and the Red-bellied Black Snake. Namely, the posterior edge of each lateral scale in particular is paler than the anterior edge. Whereas the black scales in RBB's are more uniform tonally. I've never seen a Red-bellied Black Snake with this distinctive pale posterior edge and a dark anterior edge. Here's a link to a page where there's pics that illustrate what I'm talking about: Eastern small-eyed snake (Cryptophis nigrescens) at the Australian Reptile Online Database | AROD.com.au
     
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  15. moosenoose

    moosenoose Legendary

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    Regardless of anything, you're a champ NorthSouthWales ;) Nice work...great respect! Kudos!
     
  16. saratoga

    saratoga Well-Known Member

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    It's definitely a Small-eyed snake. Quite clear from the head and body shape, lack of dark edging on the ventral scales, lustre of the scales and the way it is moving.
     
  17. NorthSouthWales

    NorthSouthWales New Member

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    Thanks! :D

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    The first picture below is taken from the original camcorder video and the second one from a (bad) photo camera picture. Maybe they help.


    View attachment 300381 View attachment 300380 SESPoolBasket.jpg SESPoolBasket2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2013
  18. bdav70

    bdav70 Guest

    wow, well done letting him out
    those ants though! viscious!!
    Beautiful species whichever it is :)
     
  19. richoman_3

    richoman_3 Very Well-Known Member

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    dont know why everyones saying redbelly .. clearly when its zoomed up on in the video you can see the head and body shape clearly screams small eyed

    edit: just saw the most recent posts .. atleast someone said small eyed lol
     
  20. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 Guest

    I have only just worked my way through this thread. My initial reaction to the first video (skimmer box) was RBB. You might say it "screamed" RBB to me - dark black snake, water, red lateroventral colour, hint of black edging, and a reasonable size and build. Perhaps these are some of the reasons. For us less gifted individuals, it required a closer second look.

    When I got the vid to stop at the right point (after 5 re-runs... am a technological dinosaur) I reckoned Small-eyed. The red colour is restricted to the ventral scales (which have an arrow-head end shape versus lower laterals which have the scale in front over-lapping). No dark edges to ventrals. RBBs (in contrast to Small-eyed) have a ridge above the eye, both eyes are visible from directly above and the snout is squared off rather than rounded.

    I also initially thought the second individual looked more like a young RBB but one glance at the eyes in that in still confirms the little one’s ID.

    Blue
     
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