Skaarfing ?

[serenaphoenix]

Bitey - from what I've read i think you've got your answer....

30% of body weight is considered to be a "Skaarf" size...

and feeding a big meal like that every 3-5 days is considering "Skaarfing" (although I know a breeder who said he fed one of his snakes 5 times a week).

Skaarfing generally only refers to overfeeding young snakes to make them grow quickly, and most people don't think this is as harmful as overfeeding adult snakes which end up obese quickly...

Apart from that - i can only tell you what i know from what i own and feed - I feed one of snakes (in particular) a lot more than the others - she's a female 10mnth MD who is about 90cm long (not shed size - snake size) (See Obese snake? thread) I was feeding her small adult mice every 4-5 days and now I feed her a rat fuzzy weekly. I only fed her when she looked hungry basically - as in up the tree - head down and in "pounce" mode... the others i usually fed every 6 days and slightly smaller prey and it has made a huge difference to their sizes. I'm moving her up a size as soon as her fuzzys are done because i don't think they're quite big enough.

 

[Ramsayi]

Well it would shut me up for starters.

Hurry up with the results Haz :lol:

 

[hazzard]

I have an opinion on force feeding and i will let it be known, just as all the people who feel it is ok will do, and have done. So for that i make no apologies.

***? Who mentioned force feeding! During this process food is offered to the snake, if it takes it it's not forced is it. I don't pry their mouth open and jam it in just for the sake of getting 30% in. This it is why it is called feed to refusal.

Bitey you won't get an exact answer to your question because there isn't one. Skaarfing IMO and since i started using the term is feeding to refusal or to 30% of bodyweight weekly (whichever comes first). The term was given to this treatment group because it emulates a feeding regime that that would be similar to his. That's it!

Maybe it's time for me to make a WIKI page LOL!

 

[viridis]

Geez stop it with all this skarfing talk .

You are making this little stimmy feel inadequate. She is 3 years old and still a runt.

Arh well she still produces the goodies!

 

[hazzard]

AH, Viridis 6 could have been 12 lmao!

 

[bitey]

***? Who mentioned force feeding! During this process food is offered to the snake, if it takes it it's not forced is it. I don't pry their mouth open and jam it in just for the sake of getting 30% in. This it is why it is called feed to refusal.

Bitey you won't get an exact answer to your question because there isn't one. Skaarfing IMO and since i started using the term is feeding to refusal or to 30% of bodyweight weekly (whichever comes first). The term was given to this treatment group because it emulates a feeding regime that that would be similar to his. That's it!

Maybe it's time for me to make a WIKI page LOL!

Thanks hazzard

 

[Colin]

It may suprise some, but early results of the scientific trial being undertaken (on childrens pythons) seem to indicate a certain degree of self regulation in relation to feed intake. Feeding at 30% of bodyweight or to refusal per week was successful for a period of about 5 months, from there intake began to subside to a much lower level of about 20% BW per week.

No details from the trial will be made public until an initial publication is made but this seems to indicate they know what they can handle to some degree.

Great study Hazzard and I will be very interested in the results.

I've said before on this subject that I think each snake needs to be assessed individually for its feeding regime with some smaller (maybe finnicky feeders) given a few extra feeds here and there to bring them up to the rest. I never weigh my food items but would assume its probably more like 20% BW per feed. For growth rate of snakes under say 18months I look at if they shed (roughly) every 6-8 weeks its about right. If they seem to shed less than that (say 4-6 weeks) I back off the food size and / or frequency. If they take longer to shed and dont seem to be growing as well as others I might give them a few extra feeds here and there.

Personally I don't think its ever as cut and dry as - 'you feed age (X) size (X) snake size (X) rodent at specific time intervals'.

I usually feed say every 7 days, but on occassions maybe after 5 or 6, and other times will wait 10-14 days. It all depends on the individual snake, its age, its current size and condition (imo)

I acknowledge that overfeeding can / may lead to problems in the future so I personally think a balance between the 'skaarfing' and a lower feed rate is probably the best way to go (for me). I would wait until a female python is at least 2.5 years old before breeding is attempted myself, but acknowledge some could possibly breed younger. That gives you about 2 years to grow a snake and in its third year possibly attempt cooling / breeding as by that stage it would be around 2.5 years old (mid year) IF the individual animal looks in a condition to breed.

Males however (imo) may be tried at 18 months if they are big enough and in a good condition to breed. If they're not fertile its no big drama and can try again next year when a year older. But females as they have a bigger job with egg manufacture etc, (imo) would be better suited to be left until minimum 2.5 years old or 3.5 years old before breeding is attempted. It also depends on the particular species as to whats an appropriate age (and size) to attempt breeding.

just my opinions and I'm not saying I'm correct just that theres many different methods people use, and some are more successful than others in the short term and the long term.

Simon Stone said in one of his excellent Reptile Australia articles about breeding reptiles -'there is no one right way to do it, just a hell of a lot of wrong ways' and that probably sums it all up.

 

[bitey]

Thanks for that colin,
greatly appreciated

 

[Colin]

Thanks for that colin,
greatly appreciated

no probs. don't get me wrong, I'm not saying what I've said is 100% correct or the best or only approach. All I'm saying is there are a lot of different methods employed by many successful breeders out there and probably the best way to go is to have a look at them all, and adapt all the best bits for yourself

I think its always going to be a 'work in progress' as there are better ways and methods being found all the time and rather than be unflexible in your approach, I think its better to go with any better methods that may become available.

Its always going to be a learning process (imo) no matter how many years you've had or bred snakes.

 

[bitey]

Thats ok
All I ever wanted were peoples methods.
cheers

 

[Chimera]

Hazzard, are there any plans to study the effects on other python species as well? I would imagine that top end pythons such as Childrens, Waters and Olives would be exposed to an over-abundance of food in their natural environment when compared to southern or arid-land pythons. Do you think there will be be a difference in how amenable to skaarfing each species is?

 

[waruikazi]

Has anyone done a study on clutch sizes from snakes that have been 'scarfed' campared to those that haven't?

Here is an example. My bredli didn't breed till about 5 years of age, i got 40 eggs in her first clutch. I know of other people who bred there's at 3-4 years of age and are yet to top 30.

And is there a study to show a correlation i have seen with fat female snakes and large numbers of infertile eggs within an otherwise healthy clutch? (not slugs, fully formed eggs that are not fertile)

 

[CodeRed]

Has anyone done a study on clutch sizes from snakes that have been 'scarfed' campared to those that haven't?

Here is an example. My bredli didn't breed till about 5 years of age, i got 40 eggs in her first clutch. I know of other people who bred there's at 3-4 years of age and are yet to top 30.

And is there a study to show a correlation i have seen with fat female snakes and large numbers of infertile eggs within an otherwise healthy clutch? (not slugs, fully formed eggs that are not fertile)

Hazzard's study will address clutch size. They wil keep the CPs over a 3 year period and record the clutch sizes produced for various feeding levels.

 

[Retic]

I have found this to be a very interesting discussion, it appears that the anti side of the argument have NO scientific evidence to back up their side and rely on a few isolated examples or everyone they know knows it's bad. I'm not saying it is wrong to disagree with it, as I have said whatever works and doesn't hurt the animal is fine but it shouldn't under any circumstances be made personal.
My experience demonstrates that snakes are pretty well self regulating, they know when they have had enough. I feed little and often, small meals every 5 days. The snakes appear to thrive and until someone shows me EVIDENCE that is is detrimental I shall continue.

 

[hazzard]

Hazzard, are there any plans to study the effects on other python species as well? I would imagine that top end pythons such as Childrens, Waters and Olives would be exposed to an over-abundance of food in their natural environment when compared to southern or arid-land pythons. Do you think there will be be a difference in how amenable to skaarfing each species is?

Yes mate there are plans to do this with other species, perhaps womas or bhp's as they are also prone to fat storage around organs as their metabolism's are not designed to handle an exclusively rodent diet.

Yes i would beleive it would be species specific and probably region specific, but we have to start somewhere!

 

[hazzard]

Has anyone done a study on clutch sizes from snakes that have been 'scarfed' campared to those that haven't?

Here is an example. My bredli didn't breed till about 5 years of age, i got 40 eggs in her first clutch. I know of other people who bred there's at 3-4 years of age and are yet to top 30.

And is there a study to show a correlation i have seen with fat female snakes and large numbers of infertile eggs within an otherwise healthy clutch? (not slugs, fully formed eggs that are not fertile)

Yes mate,

It will address clutch size and fertility rate of skaarfed v's the anti-skaarf hehe!

I can't beleive how well this word has caught on!
Based on verbal information from breeders like Shane, his fertility rates are very high.

 

[Colin]

Yes mate there are plans to do this with other species, perhaps womas or bhp's as they are also prone to fat storage around organs as their metabolism's are not designed to handle an exclusively rodent diet.

Yes i would beleive it would be species specific and probably region specific, but we have to start somewhere!

very interesting and worthwhile studies Hazzard. awesome stuff.

Are you going to try aspidites with just rodents ( skaarking & non skaarfing) and aspidites with rodents and other food sources (skaarking & non skaarfing) to see if theres a difference when the diet is varied?

Are these animals in the study going to be bred over a period (how many years?) to compare hatch rates, clutch sizes etc?

 

[hazzard]

very interesting and worthwhile studies Hazzard. awesome stuff.

Are you going to try aspidites with just rodents ( skaarking & non skaarfing) and aspidites with rodents and other food sources (skaarking & non skaarfing) to see if theres a difference when the diet is varied?

Are these animals in the study going to be bred over a period (how many years?) to compare hatch rates, clutch sizes etc?

We would love to continue the trial for 10 years, however as you can imagine funding is an issue. We are tackling those bridges at present. 3 years initially with the possibility of extension.

If we were to do aspidities it would include bird v's rodent diets as well as high intake and low intake.

 

[dragon lady]

After reading all that..................WOW...salute to Shane ...not that ive had the pleasure in meeting him!
Gather its instinct.............ive generally always let my animals..reptile or not eat when hungry.....& ive been pleased with the results.....& you do get the maximum quality you can....
YOU ONLY GET OUT............WHAT YOU PUT IN !!!!
I have a 10mnth old male vitticeps who on last weigh is 497grams & is 48.5cm long (head to tail) head being 8.5 cm wide my other are smaller including adults(but didnt have adults as hatchlings).
Saw his full blood brother last week.......wouldnt be half the size .
I never considered myself as "skarffing".....just good at knowing what to feed & when!

 

[NinaPeas]

So how often would all these animals eat in the wild? Unless there is a mouse plague or something, I can't see a bredli eating 2-3 mice/animals every 5 days.