Snake Positive Reinforcement?

Discussion in 'Australian Snakes' started by Konjira, Jul 25, 2012.

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  1. thomasssss

    thomasssss Very Well-Known Member

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    thats basically the idea , they seem to be having a little trouble with the taps though any ideas
     
  2. Ramsayi

    Ramsayi Very Well-Known Member APS Veteran

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    Positive reinforcement is needed.Just sit them down and have a talk to them about your expectations.If they take on board what you tell them make sure every time they do the right thing praise them and maybe even give them a quick pat under the chin or maybe little mousy tasting treats might work also.
     
  3. Focus

    Focus Not so new Member

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    I'm sorry if this is a little off topic, but there's a lot of talk about reptilian brains not being equivalent to mammalian brains hence why reptiles can't be trained. While I agree that pythons are not trainable, I was always under the impression that this was related to the size of the brain (small vs big), not the type of brain (reptiles vs mammals). I was under the impression that the larger monitors for example are quite trainable, at least in comparison to pythons, is this a misconception?
     
  4. kybaryal

    kybaryal Not so new Member

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    You can now get those new anti bacterial taps that run on sensor, just get them to move under the sensor and WALLAH !!!
     
  5. elapid@

    elapid@ Very Well-Known Member

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    snakes can remain calm and settled in the right environment but they cant be disciplined or trained as in routine. If any one would like to debate me on this your more then welcome lol
     
  6. sherlock

    sherlock Not so new Member

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    So you don't see what was so funny in your post? wow!!

    With all due respect to your experience Jamie, how the hell did you get that from what I wrote?
    Cuteness?- my fellow is still a baby, no adult BHP would fit through a pizza box hole. And 'cuteness' is a known attribute of any baby.

    It seems that snakes can be trained and their intelligence is round about same as a mouse.
    Here's a link on some research for anyone interested.
    Corn Snake Intelligence Study

    Thank you for this.This is my favourite post. Gentle handling of a wild, dangerous and deadly snake is possible as you have shown. You are very brave, skillful and /or knowledgeable. Probably all three.
    From a 'Ben Crop' documentary about sea snakes I knew sea snakes could be handled like that, but I did not know that land snakes could be handled in a similar way. Awesome.
    But I suppose this is NOT something anyone should "try at home?"
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
  7. longqi

    longqi Very Well-Known Member

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    We have an albino Burmese a little over 2 metres called Luna
    If she is gently stroked on top of the neck she will lift her head and kiss the cheek of whoever stroked her
    That is most definitely learned behaviour and she performs it faultlessly as hundreds of facebook photos show
    If you watch Aga Cobra, Sif, or Hunny with their King Cobras you may change your mind as their cobras most definitely follow pretty regimented routines

    In all those cases each snake is selected by instinct and you are correct about probably never disciplined

    About free handling elapids
    2 times each year Javanese snake catchers come to Bali with Cobras
    Sad ending but every one of these cobras is wild caught in Sumatra and Java
    Then travel through Java and down to Bali doing shows at local markets etc and I have no idea how they get away with some of the things they do
    But one very important thing is they never try to hold or restrain the head
    After doing the tour here the cobras end up in the restaurants and they go catch more for the next trip
    Before you attack them too hard please consider that most of the customers in those restaurants are not Indonesian but are Westerners
     
  8. crocodile_dan

    crocodile_dan Well-Known Member

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    Sherlock, did you read the article you posted? I can't find any reference comparing snakes intelligence to that of a mouse, all they say is previous methodology used was 'the maze' test which is used for rodents and that this test is flawed in it's inclusion to snake studies.

    "The scientists then trained the snakes to learn and remember which hole led to shelter, by guiding them to the hole with their hands." This sentence screams human bias! Whilst I would have to get a valid password to access the full paper as mine has lapsed, I would still be cautious about using any results from this study if the above sentence has any truth.

    One of the first things we had drilled into us in BSc was critically analyzing scientific publications. There is good science and bad science, just because something stands up to peer review doesn't always mean it doesn't contain certain flaws, sometimes BIG flaws.

    I'm not trying to cut down any argument that snakes can be "trained" I believe it is possible, but I am yet to be convinced from a scientific stand point. I am willing to concede certain snake species have better cognitive abilities than others.
     
  9. cement

    cement Subscriber Subscriber APS Veteran

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    Are the cobra defanged?
    Can you give me a link to the Luna Kiss Longqi? That is definatly something I would love to see.
     
  10. sherlock

    sherlock Not so new Member

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    I read it, not studied it in detail. The comparison to a mouse is from older research that he disagreed with. So I said "about the same." Exact comparisons were not done.
    The point I was making was snakes were trained, successfully. Not their exact intelligence level. That would, I think, require further research as you imply.
    I would doubt that snakes are the 'Einsteins" of the animal kingdom, but my snakes behaviour prompted my interest in thinking about their IQ. It got me wondering how their senses being ssssoooo different to ours would impact on their behaviour and consequently our perception of their intelligence. It seems to me that snakes have an intelligence level of some kind. And I was curious if training is possible, how? Positive reinforcement didn't strike me as very workable
    Whether my story has any validity to a truth of intelligence is obviously questionable, it was an interesting coincidence that prompted my interest in this.
    Scientifically I have no proof. If you find any data, on the Web (or Deep Web) I would be interested.
    The more I find out about snakes the more respect I have for them.
    Another aspect of this data would be how to make agro snakes peaceable, like scrubbies. If they can be coaxed to be friendly and trustworthy and the best way to do it, without the risk of being bitten. Or the snake killing you in the process, a definite risk, so it seems as another thread has shown.I
     
  11. crocodile_dan

    crocodile_dan Well-Known Member

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    The only comparison made was that early research methodology used the same test for both rodents and snakes, it was not a comparison about how similar snakes are to rodents at completing said task. Again I haven't bothered to obtain a copy of the original paper, but I doubt they would have omitted a finding as significant from the article.

    One of the issues I had with the article is I truly believe the study did not conclusively show any significant findings as there was a mentioned interaction between the observer and the study animals, creating a bias that discredits the paper.

    As for your observations, they are exactly that personal observations without any control over variables. Personal observations are useful and they often instigate further study to gain a true understanding of cause and effect, but they alone don't hold up to criticism. You believe what you experienced so that is useful to you, perhaps you can use that in the future.
     
  12. PythonLegs

    PythonLegs Very Well-Known Member

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    Ahhh,no...my sides were still hurting from snakelady96's scrubby handling tips... Then I found this! Heeeedehaahaa..oohhh...argh....defrosting the rats! In a microwave! Aaahhhargh.my brain...stop....
     
  13. longqi

    longqi Very Well-Known Member

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    With the showmen I mentioned the cobras are most definitely not defanged or milked prior to their shows
    They will use 4 or 5 Kings and afterwards ask a member of the audience to pick any one for milking
    In the best shows they only use 2 species of snakes
    King Cobras for the experts and Boiga Dendrophila for learners
    You couldnt do most of the things they do with Aussie elapids because Cobras can only strike forwards and down
    whereas Aussie elapids strike in any direction
    Ive been actively involved on stage with all of them at various times and have no idea how they get away with some of the things they do
    Aga does shows with her hubby in Penang and is the best showman

    If you look at facebook at thegreenoracle@yahoo.com you will see many photos of Luna doing her stuff
    I just got a video camera so might try to video it sometime
    Its quite interesting to see
     
  14. elapid@

    elapid@ Very Well-Known Member

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    you must love it up there longqi nice weather and all.:) great experience
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2012
  15. Luvbuz

    Luvbuz Not so new Member

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    I'm with carterd on this one - my BHP is toilet "trained" and I use the word "trained" very loosely. She has just developed the habit of doing her business on the grass when we take her out for a wander. She won't go on gravel, cement or mulch in the garden but only on the grass. We just started by taking her out about four to five days after she ate which is when she would have normally soiled her enclosure. After a few months she developed the habit of waiting till she was on the grass to go. I even tested this theory by leaving her in her enclosure for longer than normal and she didn't soil her cage, but as soon as she started out on the grass up went her tail and out popped her pooh and wee. So I'm pretty sure she has developed a "habit" of waiting until she's on the grass. So maybe we can develop "habits" for them rather than call it "training"... Just my two cents worth anyway!
     
  16. sherlock

    sherlock Not so new Member

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    Has your brain stopped yet? Sure sounds like it.
    What happened to your rule General Rule 5? - you seem to be breaking it

    I agree, but I wasn't worrying about all that. Only the fact that the snakes were 'learning' the route to the shelter. Call it training or conditioning it does show that snake behaviour can be altered.

    As for your last paragraph, once again I agree, that is why I wrote previously - "Whether my story has any validity to a truth of intelligence is obviously questionable, it was an interesting coincidence that prompted my interest in this."

    But also this quote from the article was interesting '
    ".......Holtzman says. "But this shows they're not just dumb animals wandering around aimlessly."

    Looks like we can only change a snakes habits or just condition them rather than train them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2012
  17. cement

    cement Subscriber Subscriber APS Veteran

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    It won't work with an email address... Tried googling for cobra shows but got nothing there either. If you have a video camera, wouldn't it be something worth getting on video asap, behaviour like that would be one in a million, I know if I had access to a snake like that i'd be getting video quick smart.
    I have seen blokes kiss fully hooded cobras on the back of the head, but that doesn't count as training or being trained, all that is, is a tradesmen knowing his tools and working within parameters. You know what I mean as you mentioned the known strike direction.
    Do you know of any footage that I can readily access of these shows, or explain what they do in them?

    Not these guys I hope [h=1]Отбор змей для snake show. Тайланд, Паттайа. 2011[/h]
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2012
  18. longqi

    longqi Very Well-Known Member

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    Try this link
    Wahyu Hijau | Facebook

    Hopefully that one will work
    Although that display is closed we still have most of the snakes

    From behind kissing a cobra isnt too hard even if it gets the heart racing a bit
    Aga kisses Kings from the front every day and has never been bitten
    Her and her hubbys show is in Penang Malaysia and is the best Ive ever seen
    Will find links if I can because its well worth a visit
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2012
  19. You can take a horse to water... sigh... The reason your snake doesn't crap in its cage is that is is very much less active than it is when you take it outside. When you get it outside, I'm sure if you waited long enough it would crap on the path, on the lawn or anywhere it had to simply because you got it moving. People who smoke are a similar example - many of them can't crap in the morning till they've had their first smoke - it gets their systems moving. They don't consciously think "I've had my ciggie, so now I can go take a dump..." - it's because their systems are stimulated by a drug, just as the snake's system is stimulated by movement.

    Just for your info, snakes are ectotherms, so they don't "normally" crap at any measurable time interval - their bowel movements are entirely dependent on external factors such as temperature and activity levels. Of course, if you left your animal in its enclosure for long enough it would pass its waste, without any sense of guilt or distress at having to do it in its cage.

    Jamie
     
  20. thepythonguy

    thepythonguy Active Member

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    i taught my croc how to roll over when feeding :)
     
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