Something to think about on pricing

[graffix]

This was not intended to be a profit/loss thread. Making a profit should be entirely irrelevant. It is about the sustainability of ALL species within the hobby.

People that breed anything (intentionally) have motives behind doing so. Some people do it for great reasons, like furthering the development of a species, producing sustainable numbers etc. We have to admit there are some that also only breed their animals because there is a potential financial reward at the end. Again, not the intention of this thread to cause debate.

The whole and only point of this thread was to get people to think about the long term effects of price spiraling.

The herp hobby is in its relative infancy and does not need to follow in the footsteps of other fields in the pet trade. it is going to happen anyway as any person with a pair of anything can breed and sell whatever they wish to. I am in no way dismissing the fact there are some brilliant minds within this hobby with a wealth of experience and animals to die for.

 

[Wrightpython]

exotic doc whats hard to believe that people arent out there to make money or there is other people that use to breed as a bi product of keeping animals and chose to release young or give them away.
in my records in 1999 i released 45 antarticus in faulconbridge, 18 rbb in upper colo, 7 pale heads in baradine nsw and 9 tigers in taralga near goulburn all of these areas were chosen because it is where the parents were originally poached. i continued this with varying numbers up until 2004 when i had children and all my venomous were handed on to other hobbyists and as i didnt feel they could be released successfully after so long in captivity. None of the snakes i bred were deliberate breeding more nature taking control and all of the young from those were released or given away. None were sold and if you like i can show records of such.

 

[Exotic_Doc]

Im not arguing with you, what i find hard to believe is all the crap your talking yourself up to be....

 

[Waterrat]

The whole and only point of this thread was to get people to think about the long term effects of price spiraling.

Some species are easier to breed and rear up than others but it seems all species are dropping in prices, although I think the spiraling slowed down compared to previous 3 years.

"what people think about the long term effects of price spiraling"? Nothing! They don't think. If they did, they would see that in 3 years time their reptiles will be worth nothing. What a goal to work towards to.??? If reptiles were worth nothing, would Gavin be chasing Oenpellis and would John Weigel spend tens of thousands on getting RSP into captivity? I think not. Take the $$$ from the hobby and the hobby will be $$$ poorer - not necessarily in terms of money.

 

[Chris1]

Have you seen the way commercial breeders keep their animals, little tiny tubs in racks, they dont have room to stretch out they dont get to explore new territory and new smells.

sadly the collector mentality with alot of reptile keepers means even hobbyists try and fit as many specimens in as small a space as possible.
i love it when people pull out comments like 'i have 347 snakes',...like its meant to mean theyre a better, more knowledgeable keeper than anyone else.

or, i got my first snake last week, now i have a rack set up and need to fill the 20 empty tubs as quickly as possible,....

very sad for the animals,.....life is such a lottery for them.

 

[Smithers]

Quality animals, reputation and good customer service is what I go for. I have gone back several times to the same breeder for all of these reasons. You know who you are and thank you Which reminds me I need to add some more funds to the payment plan on my latest acquisition. Doh!!

 

[waruikazi]

Some species are easier to breed and rear up than others but it seems all species are dropping in prices, although I think the spiraling slowed down compared to previous 3 years.

"what people think about the long term effects of price spiraling"? Nothing! They don't think. If they did, they would see that in 3 years time their reptiles will be worth nothing. What a goal to work towards to.??? If reptiles were worth nothing, would Gavin be chasing Oenpellis and would John Weigel spend tens of thousands on getting RSP into captivity? I think not. Take the $$$ from the hobby and the hobby will be $$$ poorer - not necessarily in terms of money.

If they weren't worth any money at all i don't think they would have had to jump though so many hoops, stroke so many egos and spend so much money to get to where they are now. I think there is a good chance they would have done it anyway, Peter Krauss did it when they weren't worth any money at all!

 

[LizardLady]

The way I see it, if you have kept animals (quality animals, at that) for a certain amount of time, have done your homework THOROUGHLY and researched the animals, their husbandry (now and into the future), you breed these quality animals, keep the offspring until they're REALLY ready to leave you, they become your "grandkids"...

For every person that has wanted to buy one of my animals, I research the person (as much as possible, without being invasive) to see if they're "suitable" for one of my "grandkids", give them a Care Package, am available 24/7 for anything they require, make certain their enclosure etc it up to "standard" before the animal leaves me (go and see the enclosure set-up if necessary).

I was "involved" quite recently, in someone asking me "how low would you go" for one of my animals - the answer: the same price I told them in the very beginning. If someone is prepared to see my animals as an "auction", they would not be suitable (in my opinion) to have one of my "grandkids". I say to everyone before they get a Care Package - if you can't afford a vet bill, don't get the animal. Simple as that. Irrespective of what type of animal it is.

Just my two cents' worth, stepping off my soap-box now!

 

[Waterrat]

If they weren't worth any money at all i don't think they would have had to jump though so many hoops, stroke so many egos and spend so much money to get to where they are now. I think there is a good chance they would have done it anyway, Peter Krauss did it when they weren't worth any money at all!

Peter Krauss did what? He didn't buy the snakes and didn't sell the progeny because there weren't any. Today, he is happily selling monitors, etc.. Times have changed, so did the cost of reptiles, food, electricity, vet bills, transportation, enclosures ... I could go on.

 

[joeplant57]

I keep and breed Parrots, there quality birds and are expensive. People would rather buy the cheaper one around the corner, there not bothered if they come from good stock because people look at prices first quality second if at all. For instance most folk would not tell a Cockatoo from good stock and one wild bird that had been caught ( this happens way to much with Parrots). I think I am saying only folk who is in the hobby be it birds snakes and so on will pay for good stuff, the average Tom Blogs will always buy the cheaper ****. I better shut up I do get carried away, trouble is I never know what I'm on about lol.. Happy New Year guys. Joe

 

[waruikazi]

Peter Krauss did what? He didn't buy the snakes and didn't sell the progeny because there weren't any. Today, he is happily selling monitors, etc.. Times have changed, so did the cost of reptiles, food, electricity, vet bills, transportation, enclosures ... I could go on.

I think you're amissing my point Michael. Peter Krauss kept those drop bears when their value was different. I doubt anyone even knew what they were back then, same with Greg Miles he had about 4 of the things. I'm saying that Gavin Bedford (and probably John Weigel with RSP's) would probably be trying to keep them even if they were worth no money at all.

 

[feathergrass]

as a newbie to reps i spent about $1500 all up for enclosure and thermostat and timers and everything else BEFORE i got my beardie
i was gonna get 2 beardie hatchys price at 95 for one if breeding was successful or 75 each for two high yellows
my folks decided ( without telling me) when they were looking for a christmas present for me to pay for a apparently yellow ( i say apparently yellow as i dont trust pet stores) beardie hatchy from the local pet store which cost them 120$ i decided rather than hurting my folks feeling that i would contact who i wa sbuying mine off and cancel ( only one enclosure) and hopefullu in the future will buy off them at some stage..
i was not worried about *how much* my beardie was gonna cost me as long as it was healthy eating and strong i wasnt even worried if my beardie had defects ( missing toe kinked tail that kind of thing) beacuse i wanted a companion that didnt have fur or feathers or lived in water and i knew right off my beardie was gonna be depending on me for its health and happiness ( now hes spoilt)
i know some people are after quick sales and some after cheap buys but to me if the cheap buyer is willing to put time and effort in and love their companion thats ok and if the cheap seller wants the fast sale then i would hope those buying either have cos they really want a compaion they love or only bying the cheap sale cos they paid loads for their set up and want a companion fast so that the set ups arent empty for months and months like mine were ( and mine was only cos i refused to buy from the local pet store lol)

 

[Waterrat]

I think you're amissing my point Michael. Peter Krauss kept those drop bears when their value was different. I doubt anyone even knew what they were back then, same with Greg Miles he had about 4 of the things. I'm saying that Gavin Bedford (and probably John Weigel with RSP's) would probably be trying to keep them even if they were worth no money at all.

So did everyone else then Gordo, my point is, would PK (and others) spend the money getting drop bears now if he couldn't get any return on them?

It seems that many people think the old days were fantastic because money didn't change hands, only reptiles were swapped or given. We had bugger all to swap most of the times because we didn't breed anything. Even in the early eighties, I had to collect reptiles from the wild for the Zoo because there was no stock available even amongst the Zoos. When breeding started, breeders put prices on their reptiles because they realised how much effort it takes. The "money for snakes" is not a bad thing, it's a natural progression ... and a good one as valuable things (of any kind) are best protected. Just look at the history of crocodiles. Once near extinction, listed on CITES - now they're the best protected species, we have booming wild populations and a healthy crocodile industry along the side of it. Why did it happen? Because a handful of enterprising individuals could see $$$$ in croc farming and that's how it all started. It took them 20 years but who is the winner now? Both the farmers and the crocs. The difference is, those original croc farmers had business sense and money to invest as well as serious interest in crocodiles. Today's reptile hobbyists have no business sense, some don't even have much common sense, just love for their animals. God bless them and the hobby.

 

[hrafna]

i guess that is why oenpellis are selling for 15k a pair. even though they haven't (officially) been bred yet. because it has absolutely nothing to do with money and purely for the joy of keeping these animals!

 

[waruikazi]

I shouldn't have mentioned PK, i don't know him. Maybe he did only do it for the money. The point i was adressing was that Gavin is only doing his current project because they are worth a lot of money. My point was not about the time in history that PK had them or how good or bad it was, it was about the relative value of reptiles during that time.

I have spoken to Gavin at length about this and i have no issue in saying that he would be doing it wether they are worth a dollar each or a million dollars each. But i shouldn't talk on another person's behalf. So i won't say anymore on that.

 

[junglepython2]

At the end of the day you can bitch and moan all you like, it won't make any difference, people will still undercut others and prices will fall until they reach a balance. I also hate to see super cheap reptiles, as many people start to view them as disposable but in a free market I can't see any way around it.

 

[Wookie]

Does it really surprise anybody that the reptile pet trade is as commercial as any other trade? When RSPs came onto the market they were commanding an exorbitant amount of money. It wasn't because it cost that much to produce them. I didn't see people giving them away to successful researchers or breeders throughout the country to further establish the captive population. Most are going to line their pockets while they can. Some call it greedy, others call it opportunistic or clever. Call it what you want, it is just how it is. Deal with it.

Also cost doesn't equate to quality. I've bought a cheap snake that is gorgeous off a top bloke who I could always give a bell if I had any questions. I've bought expensive snakes and have had a very similar experience. Do some research yourself before buying and get to know the breeder and then decide whether or not you're comfortable doing business with them. Just because somebody offers you a snake at a cheaper price, it doesn't necessarily mean it will be of lesser quality. If a "reputable breeder" had a clutch for sale and I bought them for $1000 then I flipped them to another guy for $2000 would that make me a higher quality trader and make you more likely to buy from me :lol: ?

 

[Waterrat]

"It wasn't because it cost that much to produce them."

Wookie, can you please tell us exactly how much it cost JW to obtain the breeding stock? I mean all up; the trips (not just the successful one), permits and time spent dealing with bureaucrats, the set up, etc., (yes, time = money unless you're on doll).

 

[Wild~Touch]

On what grounds to you base your assumptions regarding RSPs Mr.wookie, do tell

 

[cement]

So, you don't like people selling cheaper animals, because it damages the hobby, but paying a higher price is all sweet, as long as those charging a higher price aren't in it for the money??

How about this... the large 'professional' breeders ie Snake Ranch, sth, farmer etc, etc actually do it as a source of employment...right? So does that constitute passion in your eyes?

And so what if someone who doesn't make a living out of breeding snakes, sells a few clutches cheap? They might make plenty of money from other sources, just so they can spend it on keeping their animals in very good conditions... because they love the animals as pets and not just stock.

You'll never change what happens in a free marketplace, so if you have an issue...get a tissue,Lol!