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So did everyone else then Gordo, my point is, would PK (and others) spend the money getting drop bears now if he couldn't get any return on them?

It seems that many people think the old days were fantastic because money didn't change hands, only reptiles were swapped or given. We had bugger all to swap most of the times because we didn't breed anything. Even in the early eighties, I had to collect reptiles from the wild for the Zoo because there was no stock available even amongst the Zoos. When breeding started, breeders put prices on their reptiles because they realised how much effort it takes. The "money for snakes" is not a bad thing, it's a natural progression ... and a good one as valuable things (of any kind) are best protected. Just look at the history of crocodiles. Once near extinction, listed on CITES - now they're the best protected species, we have booming wild populations and a healthy crocodile industry along the side of it. Why did it happen? Because a handful of enterprising individuals could see $$$$ in croc farming and that's how it all started. It took them 20 years but who is the winner now? Both the farmers and the crocs. The difference is, those original croc farmers had business sense and money to invest as well as serious interest in crocodiles. Today's reptile hobbyists have no business sense, some don't even have much common sense, just love for their animals. God bless them and the hobby.
"Todays reptile hobbyists have no business sense"
This is why prices drop so much. If people ran businesses with the same attitude "he is doing it for $100 so I will do it for $80" everyone would go broke. Being a shop I hear it alot " I can by xxxx snake for xxxx $$$ from xxx" It is not like buying dry goods where it is exactly the same product (usually anyway), it is livestock and they are all different. Why would you price match or beat a price for something that could be potentially be far from the same thing!
Paul
 
just throwing it out there for discussion, but wouldn't higher prices just increase poaching? if someone wants a gtp but isn't able/willing to pay the $$$ for it, they would be more likely to try and poach some?
 
I'm sure I read an article in one of the reptile magazines by one of the people accompanying John or have read it somewhere that he passed RSPs to relevant govt. groups museums, zoos or something before he sold any as part of the deal when he was allowed to collect them.

cheers
Scott
 
Wookie, can you please tell us exactly how much it cost JW to obtain the breeding stock? I mean all up; the trips (not just the successful one), permits and time spent dealing with bureaucrats, the set up, etc., (yes, time = money unless you're on doll).

That is something you'd have to take up with him Michael, I can't tell you exactly how much it cost. Obviously my post wasn't a personal attack on John, he has spent most of his life in this field and should be commended for his work. He is obviously extremely passionate about this work.

And time still equals money even if you are on welfare :lol:
 
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No one is suggesting attack on John, you have made a profound statement that it didn't cost him much to produce them.

just throwing it out there for discussion, but wouldn't higher prices just increase poaching? if someone wants a gtp but isn't able/willing to pay the $$$ for it, they would be more likely to try and poach some?

At today's prices - no. How much would a trip and say 2 weeks stay at IR cost?
 
sna
so if i give my animals away does that mean the people who get them( who would otherwise not be able to afford them)will not have the means to house and look after them properly or does it mean they will have more money to spend on their wellbeing after the transaction. You only have to watch the news and see the puppy farms to see what money does to the pet trade. i was at the first meetings in NSW when the ahs were discussing licencing and the biggest thing npw didnt want was a price on each animals head which is why petshops are not allowed to sell reptiles. what is the difference between petshops selling an animal to joe blow for $100.00 or a breeder selling 1000kes a year for $100 each to 1000 joe blows, they dont often care who they sell to as long as they have a licence, which is to easy to get. what is to stop a breeder using non licenced animals to breed and then selling on the offspring. i know of one breeder who has 2 pairs of bhp on licence but last year sold 65 hatchlings. must just be good breeders i guess. when money is involved people often just get greedy, i thought we were in the hobby for the love of reptiles, frogs turtles etc not to make a dollar. If as stated it is often more expensive to breed them than what you get for the offspring the answer is simple dont breed them

Yeh its pretty obvious whats been going on with the bhps,they get brought in from up north,always a cheaper option to buy and sell than to breed,with all that nasty feeding and breeding stuff LOL
Anyone with half a brain knows that selling them for the price a childrens python there must be some short cuts. :)
 
No one is suggesting attack on John, you have made a profound statement that it didn't cost him much to produce them.

I don't recall making that statement. That is taken completely out of context. I will concede however, that it wasn't my clearest post. I wasn't only talking about the F1 generation. How much did a pair of F1 offspring cost? I have no doubt when they sold the F2 generation, F3 generation and so on breeders more than recouped the costs of purchasing the initial pair of F1s/F2s etc. Irrespective of their motivations, money was made. I don't see the problem with that. Even if I entertain your statement above (not at all saying it is fact or true, merely speculating); John could have sold them for whatever he liked. As passionate as he is, logic suggests he would have offset the costs of getting them into captivity with his sales.
 
Let me just start off by making it very clear I am in no way saying people should get into reptiles, or any other animal for that matter, just to make money. Passion and a sound knowledge base are critical to maintaining quality animals.

Now for my biggest pet peeve ................ Those that try to make a quick buck of their excess animals.

A scenario that is played over time and time again is where a hobbyist has produced some offspring, has a look online ans sees they are selling for (let's just say) $100 ea so a brainstorm says "I will sell mine for $80 ea and sell them all, quickly".

Sure, this strategy works. Who doesn't want a bargain right ?

The problem is that person has just set the new "price" for that animal because those selling theirs for $100 can't sell theirs so they often have to match the price to move their offspring. Then the revolving door comes around again and the scenario is repeated. Withing just a few short years the price has dropped from $100 ea to $50 ea, then $40 ea, then 4 for $100 etc etc to the point where it costs more to produce these animals than you get in return.

As I stated right at the beginning this industry shouldn't be about the money and I stand by that, but I have seen this scenario played out in other areas of the pet trade where animals simply disappear from the pet trade because they are rendered "worthless".

I don't give a rats backside that those that just tried to line their own pockets quickly now have animals they have trouble selling, but they screw those that are truly passionate about what they do and have their animals welfare foremost in their mind.

The "impulse" buy is where we will run into problems. There will be animals purchased at a minimal cost and house inadequately. people will stumble at spending a couple hundred dollars on a set up for a critter that only cost $20.

There will always be those that have situations arise that call for urgent sales, that's unavoidable and creates a genuine bargain.

All I ask is that people take a look at the bigger picture. You cannot control what happens to your animals once you have sold them on, while the vast majority of new owners are commendable it only takes a few to hurt a thriving and quality industry.

Roast away if you like, but let's stick with facts. :)


I understand what you are saying and it is not difficult to see that you are correct with the market trend..... what I don't understand is, why the whinge....

1) Yes people under cutting the market will drive the price down....
Two sides to this people will find it easier to get into reptiles due to the lower cost.... our numbers gives us strength against to beureucratic crap. That's what saves the furry cute keepers from their legislations while they continually try and put the boot into us so cheaper prices have a good effect.

On the other side it does give the animals a somewhat dispossable value but hey BDs are an avg $60 despite their high avg running cost and people still get them. Now your saying the breeders that get undercut have a hard time competing in the market that's their problem not mine or yours.... There is no law saying you have to make that pairing in the upcomming season if your worried about moving the progeny, it ain't that difficult to see the "market trend" in prices of certain animals. If they still want to breed them in the hopes of improving their stock well, keep what they want and sell the rest for what the market dictates. This is what somebody with a "love" for their animals and hobby would do. NOT whinge about prices....

2)Your saying that this "industry" (it's a hobby mate industry is about $$$) should'nt be about nomey... yet your the one bring up market trends and prices. Your saying the problem is they've set a new price, SO WHAT... it's a hobby mate not an industry only people that are worried about profit worry about the new market price.

3)Your saying there's a danger that some animals are going to disappear from the hobby cause people will stop breeding them cause their deemed "worthless".... again there goes the equation of animals for monetary worth. SO what if they don't breed their "worthless" animals. If their dedicated to the hobby and not the industry it won't make a single difference to them. If somebody wants these worthless animals they will seek them out. I'm pretty sure if someboby pre-buys "worthless" animals from a breeder they may be persuaded to breed them for that person. AGAIN there's no law saying you have to breed your animals and no law saying if you do you simply can't give the progeny away.
Stop having a whinge about prices in the guise of animal welfare.
 
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So, you don't like people selling cheaper animals, because it damages the hobby, but paying a higher price is all sweet, as long as those charging a higher price aren't in it for the money??

Graham, what is cheap and what is expensive? Price is an arbitrary entity. No one here is or should be in position to set the bar but all of us can and do argue for and against. I hope we are allowed to do that. Someone in this thread mention that ....... "until the prices will stabilize". That's my point - are we there? I like to think we are but the bargain hunters will argue the opposite until they get their animals for nothing. They are winning at the moment and they continue on winning, people like me (and maybe many others) will be out. Well, not entirely, I will still breed my greens but perhaps one clutch a year and I will give the babes away. My interest in their reproductive biology will be diminished because I won't be able to sustain the numbers I need. No more interesting news, articles but hey, I will be a good hobbyist.
 
Ok i have not read everyones comments. But i think if we all were in it for the love of the animal, and not to make money we should really just be giving the animals we want gone, or the ones we have bred away. But see this does not happen, even when its a normal animal, the sale price is most of the time over the price that the owner has spent on the animal, especially the newly hatched ones.

Say you have two hatchie geckos, you put them up for say $100 each, where in the time you have had them you have only spent $6.95 on a box of woodies.

Just my opinion.
 
Just a side note: in the good old days, no one would even contemplate breeding keelbacks, common and brown tree snakes, slaty-grays and other such species. Not to mention buying one. Today, they are available - why is it? Pure love and scientific interest? My a...
 
Ok i have not read everyones comments. But i think if we all were in it for the love of the animal, and not to make money we should really just be giving the animals we want gone, or the ones we have bred away. But see this does not happen, even when its a normal animal, the sale price is most of the time over the price that the owner has spent on the animal, especially the newly hatched ones.

Say you have two hatchie geckos, you put them up for say $100 each, where in the time you have had them you have only spent $6.95 on a box of woodies.

Just my opinion.

Maybe at 15 you don't really value the time you have put into them which is fair enough, but most people do put a price on their time spent raising the animals and getting them feeding etc. Not to mention all the time you have to spend dealing with morons and tyre kickers until you finally find someone actually interested in the animals.
 
Same thing happens with cars and bikes, where one piece of machinery can cost up to 100k and over and lose thousands every day because people sell them cheaper and lower the bar. It doesn't necessarily mean the stock is bad, it means the seller is stuck with it unless they are prepared to compete.

My dad has a VE Calais, a Mercedes ML320 and a GU ppatrol he is trying to get rid of right now, when he bought them they were decently priced and now he's struggling to get his money back even though they are the cheapest I've seen advertised and all are immaculate.

It just takes time and patience. There is always someone who will sell something at rock bottom prices to move it, the only way the market can be controlled is if most of you guys selling these things hold staunch and keep your prices where you want them, not make a knee jerk reaction to move them instantly. Eventually they'll sell if your product is good enough. Unfortunately that won't happen, so deal with it :)
 
Maybe at 15 you don't really value the time you have put into them which is fair enough, but most people do put a price on their time spent raising the animals and getting them feeding etc. Not to mention all the time you have to spend dealing with morons and tyre kickers until you finally find someone actually interested in the animals.


Yes i know that. I have geckos for sale now. I spend ages looking after them, driving everywhere to get their food. Sometimes borrowing money for the food as well. I love all of my animals, even the ones i'm selling straight from the egg.

Yes ive had many tyre kickers, hours emailing and on the phone to people. But im not selling them to the people who send me ridiculous offers, and honestly you see on the for sale threads many people saying no ridiculous offers as well even when they want the animal gone fast.

So im still not prepared to sell the animals for as much as i've spent on them. Im selling them for the time, and the love i have put into caring for them as they should be kept. Now when the animal is priced at $200, and someone offers $50 the first thought that crossed my mind is that well if you really need to spend as little on the animal as you can, then that tells me how then are you going to care for it properly when you are trying to get everything as cheap as you can.
 
i have breed numerous snakes,and at one stage had 52 carpet python babies, i gave most of them away, but numerous times i have advertised snakes for sale just to have someone put theirs next to mine for $20 less, and it goes but yours doesnt, but thats life, we just have to deal with it.
 
Graham, what is cheap and what is expensive? Price is an arbitrary entity. No one here is or should be in position to set the bar but all of us can and do argue for and against. I hope we are allowed to do that. Someone in this thread mention that ....... "until the prices will stabilize". That's my point - are we there? I like to think we are but the bargain hunters will argue the opposite until they get their animals for nothing. They are winning at the moment and they continue on winning, people like me (and maybe many others) will be out. Well, not entirely, I will still breed my greens but perhaps one clutch a year and I will give the babes away. My interest in their reproductive biology will be diminished because I won't be able to sustain the numbers I need. No more interesting news, articles but hey, I will be a good hobbyist.

Gday Mike, I agree. The reason prices won't be 'set'...is because they can't be! Its entirely up to the moment in space at that time. 4 yrs ago URS were selling greens at $7700. That was then, this is now.

To your question, This is what happened to me last year. I only want to breed what I can manage. I know what goes into keeping hatchlings, and I build houses for a living but one of my passions is herps. Because I work a 8-10 hr day, I know what I can handle and so that's why I select what I breed. I figured that a clutch of bhps from my WA pair and a clutch of diamonds would suffice and it would of, except my daughter put her spotteds together (first timer) and we got a clutch, even though the male was only in with the female for 4 days and she was just constantly trying to get away, so to save stressing her I took him out, but he must of slipped it in while she was asleep because she gave us a clutch. And then my diamond laid a clutch of 50. So from wanting only a few... I got a many!

At the time diamonds were being advertised at between $220 and $350 (hatchlings). So I put mine up for $180. To me that is cheap, as it was at that time. I didn't want to sell them cheap, I HAD to.You know as well how many hrs go into getting them feeding etc,etc. I was actually falling asleep while trying to get them to feed and waking up and finding that the snake had climbed out of its tub and would have to find it. 8-10 hrs days on the tools, plus sometimes 4 hrs at night in the snake shed. There was no way I would skimp or shirk the work that the snakes needed, but you can understand I had to sell them fast. At least I could say, when they asked if i would go cheaper, that they already WERE cheap so... no!

Some people did get them even cheaper though, and these are the people I work with in our wildlife org, they do a great job with our wildlife so I was happy, and some were given away. ( I think everyone would agree that acquiring something for free, is, our favorite price !)

I am sure you will keep writing good articles and taking great photos regardless of whether you breed or not. Besides to be a GOOD hobbyist you have to have a thousand snakes of different species and by now be on your second lot of jags;)!
 
I changed my mind, PM sent to Graham.
 
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Not to mention all the time you have to spend dealing with morons and tyre kickers until you finally find someone actually interested in the animals.

A full-time job in itself. Although I haven't done it with snakes, I can tell you it's exhausting.

I get your argument, Graffix. But what if you're a first-time breeder, with no reputation? Would you actually be able to sell your animals for a "responsible" price, even if you wanted to?
 
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An animal is worth what a person is willing to pay for it, the cheapest is not alway the best, or for that matter cheap does not always mean 'nasty' either. We have watched the price of some species drop through the floor....supply and demand! When we sell we base our prices on what we think is reasonable based on what we would pay ourselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
An animal is worth what a person is willing to pay for it, the cheapest is not alway the best, or for that matter cheap does not always mean 'nasty' either. We have watched the price of some species drop through the floor....supply and demand! When we sell we base our prices on what we think is reasonable based on what we would pay ourselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're not telling anything new snakehandler, we read the words "supply & demand" thousand times on this forum. What would be more interesting if you could tell us where will the breeders be in 3-4 years time if the trend continues.

I hear on the grape vine that SR is not doing well, luckily there is another business to prop it up, Brian Barnett pulled out of breeding long time ago because he could see the writing on the wall. It seems to me URS are concentrating more and more on herp equipment rather than on breeding and the Stones retired. A close friend of mine is downsizing.
What is it all telling you? These pros are the pillars of the hobby / industry and there is no doubt they're feeling the pinch.
 
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