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Tolly

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G'day,
Im wanting to know if any of you that own monitors particularly medium to large ones, have tried or had any success with target food training?
Ive seen this done in videos of zoo keepers and other private keepers.
Also other than target training, are there any routines you use when feeding.
The reason i ask is that im very interested in getting into monitors and my main concern is learning food response behaviour and how defined u can get those responses to be through training from a young age.

any and all responses apprieciated
 
im pretty sure david attenborough did a colour test, and he used a black ball and a white ball one on each side of the cage if he toughed the black food dropped to him, to prove it wasnt a fluke he swapped the balls over opposite sides, again the monitor chose the right ball for the food to drop
(not sure if thats what you mean though)
 
I'm not sure if you would consider it food training but if i open up my monitor enclosures and show them my empty hands then i can reach in a clean the enclosure and change their water whilst they sit there. However as soon as they see feeding tongs in my hands they go absolutely balistic and i have to be VERY careful of fingers and toes.
 
im pretty sure david attenborough did a colour test, and he used a black ball and a white ball one on each side of the cage if he toughed the black food dropped to him, to prove it wasnt a fluke he swapped the balls over opposite sides, again the monitor chose the right ball for the food to drop
(not sure if thats what you mean though)
That's in 'Lizard Kings'.
 
Like in the story of Pavlov's dogs?trained to drool by a ringing bell?aren't crocs taught by a whistle or bell too?
 
thats it i was watching it one night her on sbs or something it was really interesting!!! wonder if i can get it anywhere
 
yeah thats definatly what im talking about, it makes perfect sense to me to use an object( like a coloured ball attached to a stick) to let them know when its time to feed, if it can be done.
From alot of other articles,threads and videos its said that monitors are pretty intelligent and quickly learn routines once they have become comfortable enough with your presence.

I'm not sure if you would consider it food training but if i open up my monitor enclosures and show them my empty hands then i can reach in a clean the enclosure and change their water whilst they sit there. However as soon as they see feeding tongs in my hands they go absolutely balistic and i have to be VERY careful of fingers and toes.

ive seen videos of some of expierianced keepers feeding by hand and dont doubt they know what they are doing but what i want to know is, how do they get a monitor to realise that when they put there hands out to handle them or let them climb up their arm its not food time.
i mean just in the early stages when your gaining there trust and they are learning what is and isnt food?

id love to hear the views of some larger moniter breeders/keepers?
 
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I think it would be easier to teach them when it is feeding time, rather than when not to bite you.

As in if you only ever fed them with tongs, they would quickly associate that with food. Or maybe something you could try, make it more obvious when food is on the way to get a reaction so that there is no reaction unless they see the trigger. Maybe Tongs and garden gloves or something like that so when they see you dressed up like that it's time to eat.

My beardie really reacts to the tongs I use when I feed her crickets. Other than that, she may as well be an ornament cos she never moves without food lol.
 
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yep it can be donel, my mate done it with his perenties and lacys, you can pat/hold em or have your hand in there straight after a feed them, as long as the target isnt in sight im cuurently working on my juv spencers.
best to start with younge animals.
 
Hey Tolly,
Im pretty new to monitors as well,
i have a lacie (bells phase)
I got him when he was 1.5-2yrs old, he has had two owners previous to me so age is abit of a mystery
I started out pretty strict with target and routine as a combination,
To get fed
1) he only sees the feeding bucket and thongs if i am feeding him, otherwise i keep it in another room out of site,
2) i open the door and place the target next to a branch, the target is a short stick with a tennis ball on the end, whole thing is wrapped in wide electrical tape,
3) i hold the target just in front of the food, when his nose touches the target i slowly (as not to spook him) pull the target back and move the food (using thongs) forward.
Using this method i have trialed feeding him from the same door but from different angles, i.e on the ground, half way up a branch (1.5m), on a branch at eye level (1.9m) and few in between,
Once he as the trigger for food and has been possible to move him around the enclosure or closer to me
I have been trying to slowly build trust, he was pretty nervous when i first got him,
Not sure if this works for you, it will depend alot on the character of your monitor, how hungry they are, the layout of your enclosure and how much patience you have,
I would try crocdoc or serpentongue, those guys have hell of alot more experience in this area then me.
 
yep it can be donel, my mate done it with his perenties and lacys, you can pat/hold em or have your hand in there straight after a feed them, as long as the target isnt in sight im cuurently working on my juv spencers.
best to start with younge animals.

Cheers monitordude,
Thats what i wanted to hear, im sure there is alot more in depth and detail to pulling it off with lacies and perentie but to me it really sounds like a safer and more responsible way to train them into adults.

also id really like to know how you go with your spencers, thats what im planning to start with.

thanks for sharing that reptile boy, i like hearing that it works for people'
also ive been through a fairbit of crocdoc and serpentonges posts, pics and videos, very impressive and informative to say the least, i was hoping they might share their knowledge in this thread actually theres quiet a few blokes i would like to pick the brains of on aps about monitors'
hope they contribute'
cheers tolly
 
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Yep,i am also hoping for the more experienced to join in.i would love to get my mitts on the youngest ackie i can and start the training process.Squish knows the white cricket click-clack means feeding time for crickets,he knows the cotainer in the fridge with the mealworms,and he kinda always has salad available......so by his reaction i know what he feels like for dinner.
 
I've done quite a bit of training with my monitors and can say that, without a doubt, they are smart and learn incredibly quickly, especially if there is a food reward involved. However, it is very easy to teach them to do something with positive reinforcement, but much harder to teach them to not do something. For example, getting them to target a ball on the end of a stick and associate that with food would be dead easy and you could get a well motivated monitor to do that over the course of a single weekend, but if you think that the absence of the target ball is a guarantee the animal will not bite you're going to be in for a rude shock. It is sometimes surprising what triggers a feeding response in an adult lace monitor and you don't want to be in a compromising position when the surprise comes. My animals would be considered to be very 'tame' and I interact with them a lot, but after having kept them for a good number of years I know that there's always an edge there and I am only one silly mistake away from a serious injury. I don't know what Spencer's monitors are like, but at least they don't have the arsenal of lace monitors.

Don't get me wrong - they are loads of fun, really interesting captives and I do get a kick out of training them to do things. My lace monitor pair are trained to sit in a certain spot when they want to be let out the enclosure and to climb onto my hand in a very specific way in order to be lifted out (I've just been shooting some more video of this the past few days, but here's an old youtube video of it when I first started) [video=youtube;PxeB8kYPP0A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxeB8kYPP0A[/video].

Compare that calm demeanour with feeding behaviour (and notice, at the beginning of the video, that I was once teaching my male to come when I called and would then lift him into the enclosure to be fed - I stopped this because it was getting dangerous).
[video=youtube;7NIOeF2ICmo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NIOeF2ICmo[/video]

Lately I've been teaching the male and female to run up separate tree trunks when I feed them so I can feed them both at the same time without them attacking each other for food. This has been going extremely well and at some stage I'll post a video. I had thought of using different coloured balls on the ends of sticks so they knew which tree to go up (for example, black ball for the male and white for the female), but it seems they're quickly figuring out that I'm always enticing each up the same tree so with enough repetition they'll just end up doing it anyway. It has already started happening that when the male sees me coming and thinks food is on offer he goes half way up his tree and stares at me.

One thing I wouldn't do, though, would be to teach them to feed from my hands. I'm sure it would be possible, but that would be putting too much trust in a thin veneer of training and my hands are too valuable to me for that sort of gamble. It's better just to keep my hands out of harm's way. They're monitors and they have a feeding response so I work around it rather than fight it. They're not a bitey animal on the whole but if there's even the hint of food all bets are off. The chances of eliminating the feeding response to the point that you could trust a monitor never to bite (even if you smell of food and are waving your hands around) are slim and not worth entertaining.

Perhaps the best thing to do, Tolly, would be to explain what it is you were hoping to achieve and then some of us can make an educated guess as to whether or not it is possible and/or likely.
 
its easy to do if you find something that draws their attention already.. like the sound of something dropping to the floor of the enclosure (food) and then work with that. fred would sprint at the sound as from a young age i dropped a dog kibble in his bowl every day as a treat which made a dinging sound
 
hey crocdoc and thanks for your reply,

Basically you've covered most of what i was wanting to know, im just trying to research the whole food response in monitors to death so that i have as much knowledge as is known by experianced keepers before i start the process myself.
im very aware and realistic to the danger side of monitor keeping its more that i wanted to find what can be achieved with them and im definatly not another i want another (dog tame ) reptile keeper
more just being able to get my own to a standard of routine like( being hopefull) your lacies.
i know that each individual lizard can have its own character and temprement and theres more to it than that.

Basically you've stated that they cant be fully trusted ,my worst fear would be to have an adult
on my arm or being held and something unbeknown to me sets off food mode,so i guess i was hoping to learn how to minimize the chances of that down to the lowest percentage as possible.

to be able to disassociate myself and limbs as food would be the ultimate goal, so i can interact with them safely so i can move them if need be or check them out for health maintain enclosures etc..

also in the early stages how you go about first getting them to touch you on there own accord without biting you'
ok quick scenario; Your extending your hand out to your monitor thats gain enough trust to approach you , it approaches in an assumed neautral curious mode'
Q; do u leave your hand there and hope he doesnt bite? or
do u be at the ready to pull away if hes about to bite and by pulling away scare them and shatter there trust.?
im mean the ideal is that he just climbs up without biting,

Id just like to know how one goes about this sort off moment..

Also sorry about the multiple questions but i have hundreds off them..lol
 
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Very interesting thread, thanks for posting!

I have found that, where food and the smell of food and any food associated activity is involved, all bets are off ("Danger, Danger, Will Robinson"). Though sometimes on cooler days, feeding is alot more gentle an affair, I still plan for the worst. As I live in a cooler climate, I keep my pair indoors overnight and move my male (female panics at the mere hint of going ouside) to the outdoor avery, when weather permits. He rides outside, and back inside again in the afternoon, on an old grey jacket that I originally started using for no other reason than to avoid being torn as badly by his raptor- like claws. After doing this on a daily basis, he can now make his own choice to go outside, by climbing up my jacketed arm and onto my back or by simply moving past my arm and into the rest of the room to bask at the window on cooler days. Offering/ wearing the jacket always means an opportunity to go outside, he can choose to take it or leave it. Both animals when I'm downstairs will treat me like another piece of furniture and climb on me anytime (like now while I'm sitting at the computer!). But the female, who dislikes going outside, will always avoid climbing on me when I'm wearing the jacket.
 
to be able to disassociate myself and limbs as food would be the ultimate goal, so i can interact with them safely so i can move them if need be or check them out for health maintain enclosures etc..
That is doable and easy as long as it is you doing the interaction, for by the time they're adults you'll know what triggers a feeding response and how to avoid making those moves. The important thing is never to become complacent. We all do it at some stage and that's when accidents happen.

in the early stages how you go about first getting them to touch you on there own accord without biting you
I start off when they are young and use gloves. Often I'll put one gloved hand down, palm up, and dangle food above it from forceps held with the other hand so the monitor has to crawl onto the glove to get the food. It's important that the gloved hand entering the enclosure is moved very very slowly and that the food and glove don't touch. The monitor will usually tongue flick the glove and the odd one will try to bite it (it's actually quite unusual, in my experience), so I'll just give it a gentle flick or chuck on the chin with a finger to discourage it. Not enough to freak it out, just enough to stop the bite. It doesn't take long for them to separate glove from food. Later I'll start to dissociate the glove from food and put it in there when there is no food. After that I'll start introducing my ungloved hand gradually. It's best to start with a flattened palm facing them, which is harder to bite than fingertips, and let them tongue flick it. Watch their pupils to make sure they don't suddenly contract, which means they are about to take a bite, don't let them repetitively tongue flick the same spot for too long and never let them nudge a part of your hand with the tip of their snout. On the whole, they're not really bitey animals if you do the right things (at least, lacies aren't), but things go pear shaped if there is fast movement or food smells on your hand. Then all bets are off.

To give you an idea about what I was talking about in my previous post about feeding response/trust etc: My monitors are allowed to wander around my home, whenever I am here to let them out, and have been doing this for years. They wander around checking things out and I just carry on doing what I normally do. One day I was ironing some clothes while wearing a pair of thongs. I finished ironing and was putting away the iron when the electrical cord dropped out of my hand and the plug hit the floor with a thud. Not something you'd normally even think about, but the movement caused my male lacie to come flying across the room in half a second and before I knew it he was right next to my thong clad foot with his head darting around in food-brain mode. This is not a good scenario to be in with an adult lace monitor. Had I moved, I could have been bitten and even a simple bite can lead to severed tendons, arteries and nerves. All because of an electrical cord hitting the ground. Now I wear shoes or boots whenever the monitors are out, just in case. On another occasion I was cleaning my computer monitor with a white dust cloth and the same animal saw the movement. Small, white and moving - has to be a rat, right? I felt his claws on my leg and looked down to see him looking up at my hand intensely, with his arms wrapped around my jean-clad lower leg. Any movement and he would have been running full speed up my leg and straight for the hand holding the white cloth. Without moving a muscle in the arm holding the cloth, I gently pushed him off my leg with my other (boot clad) foot and waited for him to get over his food response.

The thing to keep in mind is that they're not always like that and those are just two sample instances out of hundreds of uneventful days of them being let out, but all it takes is one incident for a bad injury. As a consequence, I no longer let them out of the enclosure when I have guests over (unless the guests are reptile keepers themselves and appropriately shoed).
 
Very informative and interesting read David, thanks for that mate.
 
Wow they really are interesting stories. It's fantastic that you were able to read those actions and react appropriately. A lot of people may have just been frightened by these experiences and given up on the animals. Thanks David
 
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