The Importance of Quarantine - New Outbreak of 'Sunshine Virus'

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Lol fair argument. At the same time viruses adapt and change to fit in with the current environment. there is no denying that there are some viruses out there that wipe out entire collections at a time. Doesn't matter what the names are, what matters is how it is spread, and how to stop the spread and control the problem.
 
Thank you for this article in the Scales and Tails mag. I picked up my copy today and immediately was drawn to this article primarily as I recognised the body posture in the photo as that of the same posturing in my blonde mac. I purchased my adult mac from a reputable breeder who let me know that he had a respiratory infection prior to my purchasing him, however he had been treated and was now putting on weight. With this in mind I brought him home and kept him quarantined from the rest of my collection. For the first month, he ate well and shed well and I was happy with my new purchase. Then I started to see a change in his body language and eating behavior. He was having trouble eating, in that he would strike and wrap, then as he let go, he didn't seem to be able to find the head again. I tried to feed him in successive weeks, however he just couldn't find the head and eventually he would give up. The next thing that occurred was that he developed a crackle and pop sound and a head tilt. I took him straight to a reptile vet who said that he had a respiratory infection and that he was to be treated with antibiotics for 30 days. He was treated for the month and during that time, the respiratory infection did clear up, however his head tilt turned go so severe that he would sleep with his head upside down. He would also slide along on his back and could not seem to find his right way up. The vet said that it was the worst case she had seen and that she did not hold much hope. My observations were that his problems were mostly neuro and not respiratory. My mac also had a caking along side his mouth that the vet said was not unusual for a respiratory disease. So by this time his symptoms were:
Head tilt
Disorientation
Mouth discharge
Defecation every time he was handled
Refusal to eat
Severe weight loss
Lethagy
Loss of body tone
So, the vet did not know what was wrong, I informed the breeder, who did not know what was wrong and couldn't find anything on line. I have had so many experienced people tell me conflicting information. My gut told me to put him down and put him out of his misery. Professionals told me to keep going with even more antiobiotics.

After reading your article, I have put my lovely little boy down this evening so that he is now not suffering anymore. With no known cure, I have done the best thing and now wish that I had known earlier and hence not put him through unnecessary suffering.

I am glad that I used quarantine procedures - however part of my is still very nervous for the rest of my collection. I am furious with the breeder I purchased him from. I am disappointed with the reptile vet that couldn't diagnose him correctly. I am grateful that your have written this article and hopefully this awful virus can be eradicated.
 
It is very disappointing to read your story.

I am also bitterly disappointed to read some of the comments that were made previously. No-one said the vets know all about it. Viruses do not mutate to suit their environment. Some reptiles carry salmonella and if you are not careful you can contract it from them. Nor is a natural, essential part of their gut flora. I’m too disgusted to deal any more.

What we were told is there is a virulent virus, the Sunshine virus, which appears to be spread by direct contact and in aerosols. It appears the viruses have a 6 to at least 10 week incubation period but it may be longer as we simply do not know. It presents itself in the form of an RI with animals deteriorating from there, displaying neurological symptoms similar to Ferlavirus (aka OMPV).

People were given information on what to look out for and what to do in terms of quarantine. It is known to kill large numbers of animals within a collection when an infection is introduced. In other words, it is highly infectious and deadly.

I don’t give stuff what any individual does or doesn’t do with their snakes as a result of this knowledge. But no-one has the right to belittle or override the facts! Ignorance is not a solution.

Blue
 
THE BIG IF:

If reptile keepers were completely TRUTHFUL to themselves and between friends and acquaintances viruses could be nipped in the bud

.............. But NO the mighty dollars controls and who wants to be left with a suspect collection or dead animals.

I've looked down the barrel of the loaded gun and know what it feels like (this was 10+ yrs ago) and that is the exact reason everything I own is "quarantined" from outsiders.

My animals are clean and healthy (always have been) and I can sleep at night.

Bottom line is .. it is up to the individual how they run their affairs ... you can wash your hands all you like but you're still not visiting my premises

Cheers
Sandee :)
 
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Meerkat I am not sure why you are furious with the breeder. The breeder was honest with you telling you that you were going to purchase a snake with an RI. As we all know RI can be just an RI or something more sinister. You chose to purchase a sick animal and bring that animal into your collection. Fortunately you were sensible to carry out quarantine procedures and hopefully what you have done will be enough. If you are upset with anyone it should be yourself.

I know if a breeder was honest with me and said the snake you are about to purchase has had an RI I wouldn't purchase.

If the breeder has said nothing and send you a sick snake...then I think you would have a right to be angry.
 
Hmmm... I've read Sdaji's post and considered the points he's made, some of which I fully agree with, others with which I disagree relate mainly to the irritable nature of his response.

Firstly, I fully agree with him that these "mysterious" viruses are clearly not bringing about the end of the reptile keeping world as we know it... sure there have been some collection disasters in various parts of the world from time to time, but for the most part, for most of us (including me, touch wood!) life goes on pretty much as usual. He's right in saying that most people simply cannot quarantine effectively for these things, probably because they largely don't understand how to do it effectively, and to be effective, even one breach of the protocol lands you back to square one, and you have to start all over again. (That's not forgetting the old "it won't happen to me" syndrome, which, I have to say, I've been guilty of occasionally...).
And yes, there are vets out there who demonstrate fundamental ignorance and thus offer bad advice - the Salmonella thing is classic - when I was 16 (1964!) I offered my reptiles to a researcher from Royal Perth Hospital, for cloacal and buccal swabbing. Every one of the cloacal swabs returneda positive result for various Salmonella species, and the range of herps included lizards, snakes and a few Freshwater Crocs. So the existence of Salmonella in reptile gut flora has been known for decades. Similarly, on APS recently, a vet was quoted as suggesting olive oil as a means of assisting a bad shed - even basic logic tells you that the snake probably had a bad shed because of a lack of water somehwere in the physiology chain. Why would you add a water repelent layer to the skin of an already dehydrated snake???

Sdaji's irritable dismissal of the work done by Tim Hyndman is short sighted. Tim is a vet, now dedicated to research, but he's also a reptile enthusiast, and a keeper himself (I had the pleasure of dealing with him when I was a dealer in Perth). Tim has devoted the past few years to trying crack the complexities of the causative agents of these periodic wipeouts that occur from time to time in this country and others. What he has uncovered so far is potentially the beginning of a complete change in our understanding of what's going on in this country.

We in Australia have been basically hanging on the coat-tails of overseas researchers for the past couple of decades, scratching our heads when there's a problem, and saying it's all too hard when the pathology just adds even more mystery to the mix. But here in Oz, and in herpetology-backward Perth for goodness sake (I'm from Perth lol!), we have a young man who is on the way to unravelling some of the tangles we have in our own back yard. From his last communication with me, Tim indicated that there is the likelihood that our snakes may be testable for this disease in the very near future. Regardless of mighty Sdaji's dismissive tone, this HAS to be a good thing, and a major step towards a less fearful future for herpers, regardless of whether you think adding to the body of knowledge serves a purpose or not. There are still mysteries to solve, but the work is ongoing, and the future has more light shone on it now than it has ever had.

There is one thing we should all be grateful for as well - Tim Hyndman is a scientist who supports reptile keepers, and is putting his time & money where his mouth is... there are precious few in science who give a damn about hobby keepers - we need to encourage every one we've got.

Jamie
 
Quarantine procedures:

Could include a mandatory F10 footbath and shower at the entry gate to all Reptile Expos, oh yeah and I guess pet shops could be included.

Bit over the top ? ... think about it
 
Quarantine procedures:

Could include a mandatory F10 footbath and shower at the entry gate to all Reptile Expos, oh yeah and I guess pet shops could be included.

Bit over the top ? ... think about it

No handling and no sales at expos would be even better.
 
apart from se qld has this virus shown up anywhere else? has it crossed any boarders yet?

From what I gather, this is the thing that we've all been calling OPMV for the past 15-20 years. Tim hasn't had one sample in this country test positive to OPMV, although he suggests that he suspects it is here (I guess this is likely because it would come in with illegal imports - there has been very large mortalities with imported GTPs etc...)

Jamie
 
From what I gather, this is the thing that we've all been calling OPMV for the past 15-20 years. Tim hasn't had one sample in this country test positive to OPMV, although he suggests that he suspects it is here (I guess this is likely because it would come in with illegal imports - there has been very large mortalities with imported GTPs etc...)

Jamie

A few years back about 200 biopsy samples were sent to the US for testing. They all tested negative for OPMV. I had material in there via Taronga but never got any feedback beyond that. So whatever it was I think there is a possibility we now have an answer. Shame we cant retrieve those samples for retesting here.
 
Damn - I forgot to pick up a copy of S&T when I was last at the newsagency. I'll have to remember to stop by on Tuesday.
 
Sdaji's irritable dismissal of the work done by Tim Hyndman is short sighted.

Irritable? Short sighted? I'm just saying that I've been hearing the exact same nonsense for nearly 20 years and it always turns out to be nonsense, even those who were making the claims keep saying it, and there is no more evidence now than ever before. Funnily enough, the exact same thing happens in other animals groups. Whether it's fish, birds, mammals or reptiles it's always the same old story, just different labels.

Pointing out that something someone says is not true is never a 'pleasant' thing, but that doesn't make it irritable.

Of course there are some actual diseases out there, and sometimes you even see some genuine information going around, but this is just the same old myth which comes up time and again. Unless you want to believe that countless vets have been playing the same game in all animal circles in all western countries for decades, and this is the first time it's any different. I know what I think is more likely. As always, some will believe it (though none will actually do anything about it anyway - that's always a big part of what happens. Lots of people say "Oh my god!" and "I now practise good quarantine!" but essentially none of them actually change anything they do). In a few years another vet will raise his or her hand and explain why this one was wrong, tell us his or her new story which of course will be completely correct, and it will be Groundhog Day again.

Tim isn't the only reptile enthusiast who has studied biology and worked with animals in labs and stuff.
 
"Tim isn't the only reptile enthusiast who has studied biology and worked with animals in labs and stuff."

Oooh! Aren't we feeling patronising today :)! What are you actually saying is not true matey? I'm usually the one wearing the high & mighty badge around here, I think I may have to pass it on lol! I think you took too many cynical pills today boy.

Jamie
 
"Tim isn't the only reptile enthusiast who has studied biology and worked with animals in labs and stuff."

Oooh! Aren't we feeling patronising today :)! What are you actually saying is not true matey? I'm usually the one wearing the high & mighty badge around here, I think I may have to pass it on lol! I think you took too many cynical pills today boy.

Jamie

It's not cynicism, it's just seeing what it obvious and commenting on it. Patronising? How? You were the one trying to pull rank on behalf of Tim, I was just saying that it didn't mean he was right. I think I said more than enough in my earlier post, and the fact that it's nonsense is hardly difficult to get your head around if you want to be objective rather than get sucked in... which reminds me... how's the magazine going for ya? ;)

Oooh, I went there! :p Cheap shot, I know, I'm sorry, but it was too obvious, funny (and frankly, probably true) not to go with ;) You were attacking me and that was all I could come up with in response! Sorry sorry sorry! ;) ;) ;)

All in good fun :)
 
What can I say :)??? It probably was a cheapish shot... but I've got broad shoulders (moreso since I've become a regular gym junkie again lol! I've had to because humble pie has been a large part of my diet lately :)). Cheap shots usually say more about the shot-taker than the target, and this is just such an instance.

Look Sdaji, I wasn't rying to pull rank on behalf of anyone... I have known Tim since about 2004, when he completed his vet degree, and his interest in reptiles began. Perhaps you know more about him than anyone else here, I don't know whether you do or not. I haven't read his first published data, but if you have, then perhaps you can tell us where it all goes wrong. I guess at the end of the day that most researchers should run their proposed projects past you to ensure that they're not wasting their time, and those who choose to go it alone just have to take their chances.

My intention here has not been to personalise this discussion, or to align myself with one view or another. But you have taken a cynical sideswipe at someone you've probably never met, whose work you probably know little about, and who (unlikely as the prospect sounds to APS members) may know just a little more about something than you do...

Correct me if I'm wrong (although I'm sure you need no invitation to do that :))! I'm sure your ego won't be able to help itself :)!

Jamie
 
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Sadji,
You have your facts wrong. There is nothing mythical about those collections which have suffered substantial losses due to this particular pathogen. You can afford to sit back and throw stones because as you have stated, you practice quarantine. The reality is, just because you have not been affected by disease or parasites, does not mean they are not real and they have not affected others.

It appears to me that you are reacting to the individuals who tend to over react to such situations. No-one in a position of knowledge has forecast an epidemic. Some posters who appear to have felt that is likely but at this stage, with what we know, we cannot say that is likely. What we can say is if it is introduced to your collection and not immediately addressed, then you run the very real chance of wiping out virtually all your animals. In other words, it has been demonstrated to be highly infectious and deadly.

The spread of such pathogens can be significantly reduced through basic quarantine procedures. The current occurrence of it is fairly limited. This may well be due to the fatal nature – hits a collection and stops there. It also seem to have a fairly short incubation period, which again aids early detection (whether or not a keeper or vet recognises the causative factor) and this can allow early intervention to prevent further spread.

Concerns about spreading from petshop outlets may not be well founded. Pet shops tend to have as little contact as possible with their snakes. If they get sick they usually put them out back and hope they will get better. They will certainly be giving any supplier of sick snakes a hard time or changing suppliers. Individuals buying infected snakes that soon die are also going to want their money back. So I see this as a self-correcting situation.

The potential for widespread infection through an expo is very real. With the low occurrence of the disease it is highly unlikely. Nevertheless, I would consider it a risk not worth taking no matter how slight a possibility. So those suggesting quarantine procedures for expos are being sensible. They are NOT over-reacting to some myth.

While we still have a lot to learn about this pathogen, what we know so far should be made public knowledge. If it encourages people to start practicing basic quarantine, that is not a bad thing. It isn’t about hitting the panic button, it is about recognising a potential threat, albeit only a slight threat at present (and that is likely to continue given the time frame we have already been experiencing it) that does have devastating effects.

All of that aside, you seem to have some personal beef with vets. Here is not the arena to voice those prejudices. It has absolutely nothing to do with what has been put forward. Tim Hyndman is a researcher who has discovered that what we thought was OPMV disease from overseas is in fact not this disease at all. The pathological signs of the two disease are very alike, but the initial presentation of RI and the much shorter incubation period are unique to the Australian disease. He has been working on developing a test to reveal the presence of the pathogen in living snakes. Where OPMV can only be diagnosed from post mortem tissue samples, Tim is hopeful he may be able to diagnose Sunshine Virus from living tissue samples. This would be a tremendous boon in allowing us to study the pathogen and determine such things as modes of transmission, exact incubation period, whether it exhibits latentcy, what effects anti-viral drugs have… in other words, to allow potential effective control methods to be developed.

Tim is a good mate and a really decent bloke. I suggest you find another whipping boy because I for one, along with Jamie, will NOT stand by and have you denigrate him in your ignorance.

Blue
 
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I find it amusing that some people take such precaution with their animals yet for the most party we go about our normal lives despite the worst flu epidemic in years.
The flu virus has mutated and the vaccine is no longer effective we should all really quarantine ourselves for our health and well being and that of others. Yet people still drag their disease ridden bodies around spreading it.
 
The nature of the flu virus lends itself to regular mutation. Because it is not fatal most people are prepared to tough it out. The vulnerable group in society will often seek vaccination. Part of the problem is, however, that they develop a vaccine for a given strain and it mutates again rendering that vaccine useless. You are quite right about the spreading of it. The reason these diseases are prevalent in winter is that people spend most of their time indoors which generates ideal conditions for transmission of the virus. It simply aternates between the southern hemisphere and the northern hemisphere with the seasons.

Blue
 
Goodness, there's a lot of crap in here. I could argue all day, week, month and year, but the forum isn't really worth it.

But I will say, I loved Jamie's string of shots, then a claim that those who take them are bad when I give one back, then claiming to have broad shoulders, then having a sook and throwing a bunch more shots!

It doesn't take a smart person to see that the claims about this 'new sunshine virus' are silly, but it takes a stupid or naive person to miss it. It would take a stupid person to argue about it more than I already have, and probably a stupid person to go that far. I may be blunt, I may be tactless, but hey, what I said makes sense.

Believe whatever you choose to, based on whatever you choose as your basis :)
 
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