Try to ID this snake from Europe I found

[Thyla]

Didn't know whether to put this post here or in ID requests but considering it's quite a specific ID for exotics down to sub-species I thought it would have more relevance here. I don't want the location to be a diagnostic but it was when I was travelling through Middle Eastern Europe. I've 'id'ed it down to Vipera ammodytes montandoni or Vipera ammodytes meridionalis but have lost interest in trying to locate reliable information.

Any thoughts?






Apparently the difference between them is the colour of the tip of the tail (seen green to me here in the photos).
Green tip = V. a. montandoni.
Yellowish tip = V. a. meridionalis.
It should therefore be a V. a. montandoni?

 

[eipper]

I can check through some European Viper papers when I get back. For arguments sake can you pm the locality to me. I can also check with a couple of friends (one specializes in Vipera and Daboia.

cheers

 

[Allan]

Looks loke like meridionalis to me. However, not much visual difference between the two. Location should give it away though, Romania and Hungary area have montandoni. Meridionalis occurs further south with Greece covering its main distribution area. From memory there is also a small area where they overlap. Both have green tips.

 

[Thyla]

eipper that would great. Yes I don't mind PMing the location but I don't want the location to determine the species or sway anyone's opinion on what it is.

Allen, what are the distinguishing visible features between the two sub-species? Is the tail colour one of them?

Cheers

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And the local habitat where he was found slithering back to his or her hiding spot against this rock and vegetation.
View attachment 297475

 

[Allan]

Allen, what are the distinguishing visible features between the two sub-species? Is the tail colour one of them?

Cheers

No, both have green or yellow/green tails. There aren't any real visible differences unless you start looking at scales. Meridionalis usually have 4-5 scales on the nose-horn, montandoni has 3-4. Montandoni also has rostral scale higher than wide, but wider in meridionalis. Impossible to tell unless you have closeups. If anything, meridionalis tend to have a more "wavy" zigzag band, but huge variations between populations.

 

[Thyla]

Allen, what are the distinguishing visible features between the two sub-species? Is the tail colour one of them?

Cheers

No, both have green or yellow/green tails. There aren't any real visible differences unless you start looking at scales. Meridionalis usually have 4-5 scales on the nose-horn, montandoni has 3-4. Montandoni also has rostral scale higher than wide, but wider in meridionalis. Impossible to tell unless you have closeups. If anything, meridionalis tend to have a more "wavy" zigzag band, but huge variations between populations.

Ok thanks for your help. It looks like this one will just have to go down as Vipera ammodytes meridionalis due to me finding it in Greece even though it looks like photos online point towards montandoni (or maybe I'm secretly hoping I found something rare). Either way I hope real herpers go in there and have a good look at evolutionary and genetic differences between the vipers, particularly between these two in this area.
Amazing snake which will go down as one of the closest encounters with a highly venomous snake. I was about 6 hours into a hike up this rock/forest mountain and walking down hill I put my right foot out and happen to look down and I noticed this snake looking patterned object and my instant reaction was to hold my walking (was about 10 cm from stepping right on the dam thing!) and pushed my right foot to the side and watched this cute little critter casually slither away as if nothing ever happened. I followed it to a nearby rock where I removed some vegetation which exposed a small entrance to a little cavity where this snake curled up into this position and allowed me a couple of good snaps from my point and shoot. I put the camera down, watched it for about 5 minutes then continued on.