GeckoJosh
Almost Legendary
what type of Chiclids do you breed? I thought they all had spines?
Two dead in two days.
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what type of Chiclids do you breed? I thought they all had spines?
Ramsayi
Very Well-Known Member
You don't need to.A reptile friendly vet can do it for you and perhaps find a reason.It really is the only way to possibly find out what went wrong and well worth it for future reference.
They do, no chance in hell I would risk using cichlids for feeders for a GTS.
GeckoJosh
Almost Legendary
Thats what I was thinking, a simple regurg would surely be potentially fatal
I established a breeding pair of pearl horseface chiclids before I purchased my Golden tree snake and I was well aware of the spines they had, so before I feed the fry to my golden I just cut the fins off. She's been feeding on them fine since I got her at this years expo, on one occasion my golden swallowed tail fiirst with no problems at all although it did take a bit longer. For me it would just be wasting money at the aquarium buying gold fish, danios, gupies, and tetras at a dollar or more each, breeding Chiclids I think is a much better food source alternative.
GeckoJosh
Almost Legendary
Ah fair enough, for me personally cutting the fins of a live fish then letting it swim around for however long it takes the snake to notice and consume it is not something I would be prepared to do, particularly if it was just to save a dollar or two.
Its not just a dollar or two, the average batch is about 150 fry, they take about 2 months and 20 dollars to get them to feeding size, 150 danios or what ever from the aquarium equals roughly 150 or more dollars. Plus I know where they have been, know what they have been exposed to (food and chemicals) and I know they are far more nutritious than the fish from the aquarium. For me personally its just a lot more peace of mind.
GeckoJosh
Almost Legendary
Yeah I meant per feed.
Don't get me wrong, I breed feeders for mine as well so I know the advantages, just for me personally I would not breed a species that had to go through such an painful death.
I don't hold your choice against you, I was just saying I could not personally do it.
A golden tree snakes can't be feed on pinkies alone, it isn't their natural diet, they would suffer from excess iron, they need a varied diet and I only offer pinkies every three feeds. At the end of the day they're only fish, that have been bred to be fed anyway I wouldn't get much money selling chiclid fry.
Colubrido
New Member
thats a possibility too, that the fish had a problem. I was feeding them danios so maybe the danios had a parasite or something... :/
Having previously worked in the aquarium industry for 20 plus years I can safely say that nothing that fish are routinely medicated with would kill a snake outright. Unless it had a species specific sensitivity to that chemical and the chemical levels in the fish would be minimal in any case. Danios are sensitive fish themselves so are under medicated as a general rule and cannot be treated with some of the nastier ones.
Many of the same medications are also used for reptiles.
You would need to feed heavily over medicated fish for a period of time to possibly see some effect but even then I doubt it would cause the symptoms shown. If Danny Brown is around he will be able to either confirm or deny this opinion as I dare say he has looked into this.
That is not to say that fish can't carry bacteria or other pathogens that could affect a snake. It's just highly unlikely that anything they were medicated with would.
Im with gecko josh on this one. I have no problem feeding fish to reptiles ( or each other for that matter) but I do have an issue with cutting their fins off and letting them swim around until they are eaten. If in fact that is what you do.
Many of the same medications are also used for reptiles.
You would need to feed heavily over medicated fish for a period of time to possibly see some effect but even then I doubt it would cause the symptoms shown. If Danny Brown is around he will be able to either confirm or deny this opinion as I dare say he has looked into this.
That is not to say that fish can't carry bacteria or other pathogens that could affect a snake. It's just highly unlikely that anything they were medicated with would.
Im with gecko josh on this one. I have no problem feeding fish to reptiles ( or each other for that matter) but I do have an issue with cutting their fins off and letting them swim around until they are eaten. If in fact that is what you do.
geckodan
Very Well-Known Member
Why are pinkie fed tree snakes suffering from excess Iron???????? Could you elaborate on this logic ?
Cheekabee may have been paraphrasing an opinion from me. My opinion is based on the following data:
PREY SPECIES___Ca%__P%__Mg%__Na%__K%__Cu mg/kg__Fe mg/kg__Zn mg/kg__Mn mg/kg__Notes
Frog, green_____4.29__1.87__2.47__0.55__NA___11.2_____102.6_____100.3_____11.5
Mouse, domestic_1.17__NA___0.11___NA___NA___19.2_____181.3_____82.5______0.2_______Neonatal, <3 g
Rat____________1.85__NA___0.14___NA___NA___60.6_____275.8____113.6______6.2_______Neonatal, <10 g
[Edit: Damn the automatic removal of multiple spaces & tabs!!]
In summary, a pinky mouse has 1.7 times the amount of copper and 1.8 times the amount of iron of a frog. A pinky rat has 5.4 times the amount of copper and 2.7 times the amount of iron of their natural diet.
Given that they're not mammal eaters in the wild, this is enough for me to steer clear of a predominantly rodent diet, particularly for juveniles and sub-adults. I'm well aware that some people successfully feed their adult CTS purely on rodents, but I see it as too much of a risk. So when other people ask me my opinion, that's what I tell them and why.
Unfortunately, I don't have similar data for fish. If anyone does, please pass it on to me.
PythonLegs
Very Well-Known Member
There are plenty of cts owners who use rodents and never have a problem. I always fed fish until they got big enough to take day old quail, and then switched to them.. assuming you fed all the snakes the same diet, that would seem to rule out the diet being the cause..
I'd go with stress caused by communal housing leading to reduced immunity and then getting knocked over by something very minor, r.s.i, stomatisis, or if they've been fighting, septicaemia. Cts are not very robust snakes, and tend to go downhill quickly.
I'd go with stress caused by communal housing leading to reduced immunity and then getting knocked over by something very minor, r.s.i, stomatisis, or if they've been fighting, septicaemia. Cts are not very robust snakes, and tend to go downhill quickly.
Thanks Nic-G
There have been cases where not just common tree snakes but carpet pythons, iguanas, turtles and other captive reptiles have suffered from excess iron and protein from not just from foods like rodents, but from especially from canned dog and cat food. There was an article on this topic discussing excess iron and protein in reptiles one of the early signs and symptoms is green urea and and this was observed in CTSs, brown tree snakes, carpet pythons, black headed pythons and various other reptiles. Thats why I only offer my Golden pinky mice as only a supplement to its diet.
In case anyones wondering where the topic on feeding CTSs excessively on pinky mice came up is because GeckoJosh suggested that I should sell my cichlid fry to get pinky mice, which isn't a bad idea only if your offering it as a supplement .
There have been cases where not just common tree snakes but carpet pythons, iguanas, turtles and other captive reptiles have suffered from excess iron and protein from not just from foods like rodents, but from especially from canned dog and cat food. There was an article on this topic discussing excess iron and protein in reptiles one of the early signs and symptoms is green urea and and this was observed in CTSs, brown tree snakes, carpet pythons, black headed pythons and various other reptiles. Thats why I only offer my Golden pinky mice as only a supplement to its diet.
In case anyones wondering where the topic on feeding CTSs excessively on pinky mice came up is because GeckoJosh suggested that I should sell my cichlid fry to get pinky mice, which isn't a bad idea only if your offering it as a supplement .
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Ramsayi
Very Well-Known Member
Thats a new one on me.I was always under the impression that green urates were a symptom of excess bile as a result of fatty liver disease.
As others have said you need to get a post mortem. With regards to feeding only rodents to Dendrelaphis....It is fine, they survive and thrive for years on rodent only diets. The symptoms described by the OP are similar to that of a snake suffering from a thiamine deficiency.
As for it not being the snakes natural diet.... well if you look at the percentages about 80% of elapids and colubrids have a diet that centres on reptiles, frogs and reptile eggs and yet many of these in captivity eg Hoplocephalus, Notechis, Stegonotus, Austrelaps all thrive on mammals.
Cheers,
Scott
As for it not being the snakes natural diet.... well if you look at the percentages about 80% of elapids and colubrids have a diet that centres on reptiles, frogs and reptile eggs and yet many of these in captivity eg Hoplocephalus, Notechis, Stegonotus, Austrelaps all thrive on mammals.
Cheers,
Scott
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jairusthevirus21
Active Member
Very interesting.... this has been the most informative thread for a while.... 
B
Bluetongue1
Guest
Sean-C-K-N,
If you are serious about wanting to successfully keep CTS in the long term, then you would want do your utmost to determine the actual cause of death. Those who know about such things have recommended that you get a reptile savvy vet to do a post mortem examination. The reason is that the cause of death may, in fact, be something completely different from what has been suggested to date. A PM can make the difference between possible causes of death to actual cause of death.
There are limitations with a PM, particularly the longer you leave it to have done. At worst, the results may not be conclusive as to the actual cause of death but they will eliminate a range of possible causes and highlight a number of likely possibilities.
Without a PM, trying to ascertain the specific cause of death is purely conjecture based on appearances and its interpretation by those who have had or are aware of related experiences. This is definitely of value, particularly if there is no alternative. However, you do have an alternative….
Blue
If you are serious about wanting to successfully keep CTS in the long term, then you would want do your utmost to determine the actual cause of death. Those who know about such things have recommended that you get a reptile savvy vet to do a post mortem examination. The reason is that the cause of death may, in fact, be something completely different from what has been suggested to date. A PM can make the difference between possible causes of death to actual cause of death.
There are limitations with a PM, particularly the longer you leave it to have done. At worst, the results may not be conclusive as to the actual cause of death but they will eliminate a range of possible causes and highlight a number of likely possibilities.
Without a PM, trying to ascertain the specific cause of death is purely conjecture based on appearances and its interpretation by those who have had or are aware of related experiences. This is definitely of value, particularly if there is no alternative. However, you do have an alternative….
Blue
Colubrido
New Member
Cheekabee I did work at upmarket, Do you know the people there? and yes I am serious about keeping them Bluetongue1. however I was just really confused. My first thought wasnt to take them to a vet it was what the hell killed them...So basically the only thing I thought about doing was checkin out what some people on here had thought about it. Should of handled it better I guess.
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