What should be done with sibs?

Discussion in 'Australian Snakes' started by champagne, Sep 26, 2013.

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  1. andyh

    andyh Well-Known Member

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    the term "hybrid" seems to be thrown around quite liberally here, incorrectly in most cases.
     
  2. longqi

    longqi Very Well-Known Member

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    Any Aussie jag must be a hybrid
    When any mixed sub species is bred together the progeny must be hybrid
    When any mixed full species is bred together the progeny must be hybrid

    Larks
    Cool that you joined in
    I may not agree with breeding reptiles with a known health issue but this thread is not about jags
    Its only to do with hybrid siblings and hybrids definitely do not start and finish with jags

    Ive never seen a batch of hatchies from a jag line without a couple of ugly duckilings
    Although usually fugly they are healthy

    Three questions Lark
    What do you do with the fugly ones?
    How do you label the normal looking siblings?
    Do you think hybrid siblings will have any impact on the reptile industry in Australia?
     
  3. slash89

    slash89 New Member

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    I have got to say that I am simply mortified at the responses to this thread. I can not for the life of me believe how many of you "snake lovers" would have cross breeds euthanized. All of you purists, in my opinion, are making massive assumptions and using them to justify the most extreme form of rectification. I only have pure bred pairs in my collection, but that's not to say that the thought of owning and breeding Jag's has never crossed my mind, and my reasons for this have nothing to do with money. I think that some of the Jag's that people are producing today are nothing short of breath taking. They are beautiful animals, and I can definitely see why people are attracted to them. The only reason I don't own any is because of the way communities like this respond to the very idea of them. From where i sit, I believe most people who breed snakes have a genuine passion for the animals. I'm not completely ignorant, and I do understand that some people are simply in it for the money. You're always going to get a few bad eggs, however, I believe most cross breeders do what they do for the excitement of finding something completely new and amazing, if not just to reproduce some of the stunning examples already out there. There aren't too many opportunities these days to make completely new discoveries in any field. It's all been done before, or so it seems. But to me, that temptation is always there. The "what if's" make the hobby all that more exciting to me. If I were to cross breed, I would never kill any of the "undesirables" that you speak of. I think every snake is beautiful in it's own way, and I think those of you considering such a barbaric act as the only solution are far worse even than those who cross breed purely for profit. You all seem to be such experts, so shouldn't you know the difference anyway? If some dishonest jerk tried to sell you a sib and told you it was pure, surely you'd have enough references and experience to spot the difference? I really don't think you've thought hard enough about alternate solutions if culling all sibs is the conclusion you've landed on here. As long as all of you concerned breeders keep your own blood lines pure, then there will always be pure blooded animals available. If you are seriously that concerned about "mongrels" entering your collecions, then I can only suggest that you buy only from reputable dealers at their prices. If something seems too cheap to be legit, then it probably is. Don't buy it. Simple. I personally would sell my sibs at rock bottom prices to kids and first time owners looking for a cheap way to enter the hobby. I would screen them carefully and ask many questions to lessen the chances of them ending up in the wrong hands. Not every snake owner is interested in breeding, and many of these sib's that you'd have put to death, may become beloved pets if only given the chance. Remember, you're the ones who are labeling them as undesirable. As a kid, I would have been happy to own even the ugliest snake. better than no snake at all. From what i've seen, most sibs aren't as attractive as their pure bred cousins, so I really can't see too many people wanting to waste a breeding season by crossing them with a pure bred partner just so they could pawn of their "fake-pure" offspring. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I understand that it may be hard to predict the temperament of a sib, but i'm sure that if you sold them for a low enough price and gave as much advice on each of the parent species as you could, then people would be happy to learn as the snake grows. No 2 snakes in my experience have been the same anyway in regards to behaviour. Perhaps stricter registration of cross bred animals would be another alternative to prevent the market being flooded by sibs in disguise? I realise we're all entitled to our opinions, and on that note, please realise that I too am entitled to mine. I just thought i'd express how disheartened I was to read this thread.
     
  4. TrueBlue

    TrueBlue Very Well-Known Member

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    larks,-
    Fair call.
    One thing that you may not realise though is that even though you still keep and breed pure animals alot of people will not buy these animals from you any more becuse of the jags you keep and breed. This is not here-say as ive had a number of people tell me this about yourself and other well known breeders that keep both. Double edged sword.
     
  5. champagne

    champagne Well-Known Member

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    I think how disheartened you are comes from the clear lack of knowledge and just for your information, sib can look exactly like a pure sub species.

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    I don't think Wayne has a problem selling any of his animals, tho I'm sure he just curled up in the corner and started to cry after hearing that you and some of your friends now wont be buying from him lol. Im sure some of your mates will buy some pure axantic coastals off him to cross with your hypos to make those crazy looking ghosts, they will keep you happy and tell you otherwise tho....
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
  6. cement

    cement Subscriber Subscriber APS Veteran

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    Threads not about jag breeders or anybody being honest.
    Its a discussion on the impacts of breeding hybrids to the reptile keeping hobby.

    Your not getting it, read post number 54.
    Purists breed pure lines for legitimate and valid reasons. One of the reasons is so they can avoid the practice of having to find buyers for mongrels. I have never heard of culling of pure line snake hatchlings, except for the euthansing of deformed individuals. Maybe I live a sheltered life though.

    Killing off hatchlings from a clutch when breeding hybrids is practised. The breeder knows they will hopefully get one or two of the desired morph and the rest is collateral damage. Pretty well the same as what happens in nature with a clutch, maybe this is the justification.

    This is an open discussion on the effects, of these breeders, on the hobby as a whole when they DONT kill the unwanted hatchies. There has been two Pro jag comments.... one was immature and ridiculous and the other saw it as a personal attack on his integrity.

    I do have a question. Why do the people who breed jag or RPM that have flashy big websites only advertise the jags or the pure? I'll admit I don't consistently check websites, but in the past I have never seen one that advertises the siblings. So where are they? Its hard enough to move snakes on with advertising, let alone the ordinary lookers with NO advertising. Considering that one jag male over 5 large female carpets, might do two or three clutches.....40-60 hatchies conservativily. That leaves 20-30 healthy but mix blood animals.....Fair bit of expense keeping them going while you try and find homes for them....... And how many breeders are there doing this? Thats a lot of snakes......

    Maybe culling is good for the hobby but its also immoral.

    Personally I would rather not have to make the decision, so its pretty easy for me to make a choice.
     
  7. andynic07

    andynic07 Very Well-Known Member

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    If the sibs were euthanised and then used for something would that make you feel better about it? The reason that I ask is because I would hate to see senseless killing of any animal but I am quite ok with animals being killed for food.
     
  8. champagne

    champagne Well-Known Member

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    they don't have to kill sib hatchlings but the should not release any, so maybe jag breeders should be moving towards breeding jag to jag getting less sibs and holding on to these sibs for their whole life. yes I know it is not very practical but it would be the right thing to do if you didn't want to cull any or pay to have them sterilized before selling. I think most jag breeders don't advertise sibs because most give them away with the jags to make pairs.

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    overseas some zoos are happy to sell to some breeders, this is how they now have rsp over there. Also there is a large number of smuggled animals traded, as much as the government like to play it down.

    In Australia it is a different story with the zoos but not illegal and does happen.
     
  9. andynic07

    andynic07 Very Well-Known Member

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    That is interesting, I thought zoos only bred animals for conservation reasons and not to sell to the public. The fact about smuggled animals was what made me think the heritage waters would be muddied.
     
  10. larks

    larks Well-Known Member

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    First off I have not joined this thread to take part in a discussion with you guy. However I will answer your questions longqi.

    I am yet to see any fugly sibs, but then again I love all snakes and don't think I've ever seen a fugly one.
    I lable my sibs as jag sibs. You guys would see that as trying to get more money for them. I see it as making it clear that they came from jags and there purity is unknown.
    Yes I do think sibs will have an impact on the hobby. I believe it could have been a small impact. However with all these threads with people who clearly don't know what they are talking about bashing the people who like theses sort of animals only encourages people to be dishonest about there animal. Lets face it if people are going to cop a heap of abuse for selling there coastal jungle as a cross and it looks more like a jungle why wouldn't they just put it up as a jungle and avoid the abuse. You guys think you are fighting the good fight but infact you are just making it harder for people to keep it honest.

    I really don't have any trouble selling any of my snakes pure or not TrueBlue. I am also picky about who I sell to.

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    Cemenent you may want to re-read the thread tittle it's about sibs and sibs come from jags and any thread that has sibs that come from jags turns into a jag breeder bashing on this site.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
  11. TrueBlue

    TrueBlue Very Well-Known Member

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    btsmorhps,-
    lol, Once again you missed the point that I was trying to say completely.
    Most of the people I have heard this from I hardly know, they have just brought it up in conversation when ringing me to enquire about getting snakes from me. So very wide spread indeed.
    It was also not ment to be said in a bad way, just poniting out that by keeping and breeding jags a large portion of the market for their pure animals instantly dissapears.
    I also dont know why you brought my name into the mix as i have never got an animal off larks and never will as i have no need or desire to.
    I breed quite a few animals each year and donot have to advertise any of them these days, even the common stuff, as they all go by word of mouth etc., and that suites fine thank you very much.
     
  12. KaotikJezta

    KaotikJezta Very Well-Known Member

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    I can vouch for larks being an upfront person. I bought a beautiful pure Darwin off larks and he is very honest and a great person to deal with. He had sibs advertised as sibs at the same time so I have no reason to think my girl is a cross/sibling as if that was the case, why advertise sibs at all.
     
  13. TrueBlue

    TrueBlue Very Well-Known Member

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    larks,-
    We both posted at the same time. lol.
    I was not directing that comment to just you but to alot of people that keep and breed both, thats just the way the tide has turned lately.
    I have always had alot of respect for you and the aniamls you have bred in the past.
    But unfortunately since you have started keeping and breeding jags most of this respect has gone, and this is by far not just my opionion. Just trying to point out the damage that jags has done to the hobby in more ways than one. Not trying to have a go at you at all if you can only understand what im trying to say
     
  14. champagne

    champagne Well-Known Member

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    so people call you wanting to get some high quality pure animals off you, knowing you don't want your pure stuff crossed into jags ect so they start bagging out known jag breeders to cover their real reason for wanting your stock.... but yeah you have your finger on the pulse and know what's going on lol

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    do you put jag sib on the paper work? if not what do you put on the paper work?
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
  15. slash89

    slash89 New Member

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    btsmorphs, you are a very unpleasant person. Calling people names now? "Are you that stupid". Doesn't make your point any more valid, slamming those who disagree and assuming their intelligence is inferior to your own. Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone stupid because this is an open ended debate. No one side is completely correct, we're all just discussing our opinions. You seem to believe that all hybrid breeders are dishonest and that they're destroying the industry. That's nice. Someone made a good point earlier when they said it's the bashers like you who make people lean towards lying about whether a sib is pure or not. I would certainly not lie about that myself, but with responses like yours, I can see why a lot of people would be intimidated about the idea of advertising a clutch of sibs (or any other hybrid) for sale. Shut me down again, insult me. Tell me you have no respect for me, or that I "don't get it". Like I stated, this was my opinion and mine only. I honestly live by a different set of morals and principals to you. I can see that sibs will have an impact on the industry, that's inevitable, I just don't feel it will be as severe as you're making it out to be. Not every Jag breeder lies. Not every pure line breeder tells the truth. You'd have thousands of healthy snakes killed at birth out of nothing more than paranoia, i can not get behind that. As stated earlier, I do not cross breed myself, and probably never will. Even if the culled sibs were used for something, I would still not be ok with killing babies. So in summary, this is me agreeing to disagree. Don't just write me off as not understanding. I have taken your points on board, and I'm not saying you haven't made some good ones, I just can't bring myself to agree with you. Repeating yourself with growing hostility will do nothing to change anyones mind here.
     
  16. andynic07

    andynic07 Very Well-Known Member

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    Do you agree with killing baby pink mice or rats?
     
  17. champagne

    champagne Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say that hybrid breeders were dishonest, I started this thread to talk about what to do with sibs not how to stop jag/hybrid breeding; you really need to learn how to read as you seem to have missed a lot of what is written in this thread. Yes people breeding hybrids is killing part of the hobby because at some point down the track they can muddie up the water and sold as pure. Sorry for being hostile but ignorance and pretending to have half an idea what you are talking about, when clearly you don't understand and have no experience really ticks me.

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    people have the right to breed jags, I am not saying they shouldn't. what I am saying is purist and people who don't want to be involved in the jag part of the hobby have a right to this as well. At present this will not happen as current licensing does not allow jag/hybrid sibs put on license for what they are. so I believe that jag breeders should not affect the part of the hobby I wish to be involved in because of this, so if they want to play with jags they should deal with all the problems that come with them. jag/hybrid breeders releasing cross sibs into the hobby affects what I want to do but that's no problem and I have no right to stop them from effecting me but if I stopped a jag/hybrid breeder from keeping jags it would be a different story.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
  18. slash89

    slash89 New Member

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    I see your point mate, but those mice are specifically bred as food. Sibs are a by-product, and whether you find a use for them once they are dead is irrelevant. That's not why they came into existance. They are only born so that people can enjoy their pretty jag brothers and sisters. It's a moral conundrum and I can see the hypocrisy in my thinking, and in short, that's why I won't breed hybrids. I don't want to be faced with that decision. I'm in no position to bag out anyone who does though. I just feel there has to be a more humane solution.
     
  19. andynic07

    andynic07 Very Well-Known Member

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    I am glad that you can see the hypocrisy it your thinking and I really don't think that it would something that anyone could do easily. I am an animal lover and have pet rats as well as food rats and found it very hard at first to kill off my first batch of rats but it is necessary for my snakes to survive and some people see the killing off of siblings as a bad thing for the greater good of the hobby. I am not sure that is a way that I want the hobby to go but think there needs to be something put in place to stop the heritage of a sibling being lost as it is on sold.
     
  20. cement

    cement Subscriber Subscriber APS Veteran

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    Hey man, no ones bashing anyone. I actually like hearing what people say with some passion in their voice so if your fired up then good!Shows you have passion.
    But seriously, keep it real. As far as I can see, EVERYBODY wants the true label on the snake so they have the choice, I haven't heard anyone say they don't. It's recognised as the honest thing to do, so your excuse for it to go underground is BS. Its common knowledge that jags and other hybrids are going to be breed, no one can stop that, or have a control over it, so maybe this thread may help educate newbies with making choices....

    SIBS is short for siblings brother, siblings come from any clutch with more then one egg, the word was around before jags reared their wobbly heads. There are hybrid matings that produce clutches that aren't jags Larks...
     
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