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cathy1986

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I was reading some post on fb saying what will I get if I breed this with that etc..... I find it quite annoying when these sorta people ask these questions, because it goes to show they have no understanding of the general genetics of their snakes, so therefore have no plan in regards to what it is they are doing soo whats the point and why??? Whats your thoughts

From Cathy
 
It's the toy mentality. They have no respect for the beauty of a species. Never satisfied they need something no-one else has. It's all about them. Not the animals.

Just MO.
 
Just people who couldn't give a stuff about herpetology IMHO, funnily enough it's usually the same people who can't fathom the idea of snakes being anywhere but in enclosures.
There are a few on facebook who are treated like gods because they specialize in breeding crosses, it's a shame that their "work" seems a lot more interesting and important to some than those who have devoted their lives to Australian taxonomy, education and literature.

Welcome to herpetology circa 2013
 
I don't think there is any harm in asking questions online, I'm sure we've all had to start somewhere and i would prefer to ask direct and specific questions online instead of paying $90 for a book that mite briefly cover what it is I'm actually interested in.

But hey, thats just me
 
I don't think there is any problem with curiosity. I think everyone would be interested to see what an olive x coastal or scrub python would look like. There is a lot worse things people can be doing with their snakes other than hybridizing. Im not saying I recommend/support it, but I would be interested to see what the outcome of some particular cross breeds would be.
 
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What I dislike is constant the use of the word "intergrade" that is happening these days.
This is meant to describe a naturally occurring cross but its use when selling animals that have been deliberately cross bred with no forethought other than making a few bucks and misleading the uneducated buyer.
 
I don't think there is any problem with curiosity. I think everyone would be interested to see what an olive x coastal or scrub python would look like. There is a lot worse things people can be doing with their snakes other than hybridizing. Im not saying I recommend/support it, but I would be interested to see what the outcome of some particular cross breeds would be.


im not really talking about hybrids directly more just the fact if you dont know what your doing then why are you doing it?? like ppl who buy a breeding pair then start posting about how do i make an incubator and how do i know when she is gravid etc when they should already know since they bought a breeding pair. wouldnt one think they would have prepared for their ventures??

its the same as i bought a snake how do i set up its enclosure what temps should i keep them at

and i have a bredli can i breed it with my jungle what will i get?? -_-

lol it drives me a bit upsy daisy

PREPARATION and RESEARCH is the key
 
I don't think there is any harm in asking questions online, I'm sure we've all had to start somewhere and i would prefer to ask direct and specific questions online instead of paying $90 for a book that mite briefly cover what it is I'm actually interested in.

But hey, thats just me

Im with you on this one, they're is no stupid questions only stupid answers. How are these "uneducated" people going to get educated without asking questions?
I know the internet has taught me over 50% of what i know about reptiles.

PREPARATION and RESEARCH is the key
=
+1
 
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Why does everyone need to be so concerned with what everyone else is doing? Why is it always the purists and morph haters doing the attacking? Those who are interested in morphs don’t attack the purists for wanting boring wild types even though (as Gavin Bedford has suggested with his recent questions) our animals have literally zero conservation status. Why is it wrong to have an interest in this and for wanting to be able to see the real results of theoretical concepts?

For some people genetics is a fascinating subject and for those of us who are interested in reptiles then obviously reptile genetics are going to be the most fascinating. Tesla, I’m guessing you’re having a go at people who would be considered to be at the forefront of Carpet morphs like Larks in Aus or Precision Reptiles and UK Pythons in Europe. These guys have a strong understanding of an incredibly complex topic and it shows now that they are finally producing exactly what they said they would years ago when their projects were in their infancy.

Have any of you sat down to try to understand what would come from pairings involving relatively simple double recessive morph or incomplete/co-dominant? Not only can it be difficult to wrap your head around but it would also be a nightmare trying to prove the possible hets and double hets that come from them. Half the people on this site don’t even understand how to produce albinos so it’s not surprising that people ask these questions, especially with the number of possible mixed morphs around now. While I can see the point the OP was making about researching, I would also consider asking questions on the internet a form of research. It would be quite a good way to research too, if the people who know the answers were given a chance to respond rather than people just attacking because they don’t like something.

I think it would be completely feasible for someone to buy a morph because they like the look of it and then a couple of months/years down the track to start wondering what sort of babies it could produce. If I were in that position, my first thought would be something along the lines of “where can I go where there are lots of knowledgeable people that I can ask a question of and have the best possible chance of someone who knows the answer responding?”
But hey, maybe I’m just a sucker for not assuming the worst of people straight away...
 
Why does everyone need to be so concerned with what everyone else is doing? Why is it always the purists and morph haters doing the attacking? Those who are interested in morphs don’t attack the purists for wanting boring wild types even though (as Gavin Bedford has suggested with his recent questions) our animals have literally zero conservation status. Why is it wrong to have an interest in this and for wanting to be able to see the real results of theoretical concepts?

For some people genetics is a fascinating subject and for those of us who are interested in reptiles then obviously reptile genetics are going to be the most fascinating. Tesla, I’m guessing you’re having a go at people who would be considered to be at the forefront of Carpet morphs like Larks in Aus or Precision Reptiles and UK Pythons in Europe. These guys have a strong understanding of an incredibly complex topic and it shows now that they are finally producing exactly what they said they would years ago when their projects were in their infancy.

Have any of you sat down to try to understand what would come from pairings involving relatively simple double recessive morph or incomplete/co-dominant? Not only can it be difficult to wrap your head around but it would also be a nightmare trying to prove the possible hets and double hets that come from them. Half the people on this site don’t even understand how to produce albinos so it’s not surprising that people ask these questions, especially with the number of possible mixed morphs around now. While I can see the point the OP was making about researching, I would also consider asking questions on the internet a form of research. It would be quite a good way to research too, if the people who know the answers were given a chance to respond rather than people just attacking because they don’t like something.

I think it would be completely feasible for someone to buy a morph because they like the look of it and then a couple of months/years down the track to start wondering what sort of babies it could produce. If I were in that position, my first thought would be something along the lines of “where can I go where there are lots of knowledgeable people that I can ask a question of and have the best possible chance of someone who knows the answer responding?”
But hey, maybe I’m just a sucker for not assuming the worst of people straight away...
Beautiful just beautiful. Dihybrid crosses are always fun ;)
 
lol u guys are still not understanding what im trying to put across hahahahaha u ask these sort of questions BEFORE you invest in the reptiles and BEFORE you attempt to breed etc lol
 
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Some people ask these questions just to start a conversation. I for one have done this. Not because I lack the knowledge, but because I like to her other opinions on my pairings. There are far to many people who jump the gun and do there research after the fact. on the flip side I see nothing wrong with crossing your t's, and dotting your i's when it comes to reptiles. There is a lot of contradicting info on the internet. I see nothing wrong with first time breeders asking a million questions making sure they get it right the first time. that's just my 0.2.
 
It's all nice and good for someone to say people should prepare, be respectful of the hobby and plan ahead. But unfortunately, we are human and we are all raised in different ways with different degrees of intelligence and expectations. You can't police what people do in this hobby. I try and give advice where I think I can to all the stupid questions I see because I was there once too and everyone has to start somewhere. I'm 110% sure I asked stupid questions too including the age-old "My stimmie hasn't eaten in 5 months - what should I do???" that we all hate seeing.

The only way to reduce the amount of stupid things people do is through education. Those of us who have been in the hobby for awhile should do all we can to help out the new guys with their curious (and yes, irritating) questions in the hopes that educating them will help them make the kinds of decisions that will preserve the hobby that we all love.


Don't forget as well that online forums attract all reptile enthusiasts - including kids that own reptiles. Don't assume that the person on the end of a question you perceive to be stupid is 30 years old and should know better (although I'm sure there's lots of those too!) :p
 
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Very well said "I'm sure we've all had to start somewhere" every needs advice at some point, the people on here need to pull the stick out!
 
im not really talking about hybrids directly more just the fact if you dont know what your doing then why are you doing it?? like ppl who buy a breeding pair then start posting about how do i make an incubator and how do i know when she is gravid etc when they should already know since they bought a breeding pair. wouldnt one think they would have prepared for their ventures??

its the same as i bought a snake how do i set up its enclosure what temps should i keep them at

and i have a bredli can i breed it with my jungle what will i get?? -_-

lol it drives me a bit upsy daisy

PREPARATION and RESEARCH is the key

I agree with the theory of this statement about people should be prepared and have knowledge about what they are doing but do not like the term breeding pair. What is a breeding pair exactly? Some people sell hatchlings as a breeding pair where they will not be actually breeding for a number of years , even if the two snakes are of breeding age why are they considered a breeding pair. I would much prefer someone selling them as hatchlings probed or popped as male and female or male and female of breeding age or male and female previously bred.
 
I was reading some post on fb saying what will I get if I breed this with that etc..... I find it quite annoying when these sorta people ask these questions, because it goes to show they have no understanding of the general genetics of their snakes,

Not to start a massive debate here but some info for thought.
This is some info I have come accross in my travels.

I've been told that DNA studies of the morelia group uncovered there were only three distinct DNA found in morelia - being imbricata, bredli and the rest..

Research was performed at the University of Adelaide/SA Museum through a number of PhD students under the supervision of Professor Steve Donnellen. Apparently despite the work being completed in 2006 it hasn’t been published. The reason for this is the PhD student got a job straight after his PhD with forensics and hasn’t had the time to publish the work.

But the title of the PhD is “Using DNA markers for wildlife management and protection: a study of the population structure and systematics of the Australian Carpet Pythons”. It was done by Duncan Taylor.

Here is an abstract …

Abstract
We used a range of molecular genetic markers to investigate the population structure of the polytypic and widespread carpet python complex (Morelia spilota) from Australia and New Guinea, in which two species and seven subspecies are recognized currently based on scalation, color pattern and behavioral traits. However, knowledge of the taxonomic and geographic distribution of variation in behavioral and morphological traits is incomplete and whether variation in these traits indicates population divergence or local adaptive responses has not been determined, making the basis for systematic decisions unclear. We examined variation in mtDNA control region sequences, allozyme loci and eight microsatellite loci from snakes sampled from 118 locations throughout the range of the complex and used concordance among the three datasets to analyse species boundaries. We found that the currently recognised species Morelia bredli and sub-species Morelia spilota imbricata can be recognized as distinct lineages within the Morelia spilota complex sufficient to warrant species status as M. bredli and Morelia imbricata respectively. Within the remaining taxon M. spilota, we found high levels of geneflow and low divergence between all other putative sub-species.

The bottom line of the study was that with the exception of imbricata and bredli the whole Morelia spilota group is just a complex of interbreeding populations which are locally adapted to their environments but are not reproductively isolated in the wild.

all this research was carried out and supervised by:
Professor Stephen Donnellan
South Australian Museum,
North Terrace, Adelaide SA 5000, and
School of Earth and Environmental Sciences,
University of Adelaide SA 5005,
Australia.

I wont name the person that enlightened me with this info but I am sure they will come forward if they want to.
My question is how much does the average hobbyist know about the australian snake populations gene pool?
 
It's the toy mentality. They have no respect for the beauty of a species. Never satisfied they need something no-one else has. It's all about them. Not the animals.

Just MO.

Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
Why does everyone need to be so concerned with what everyone else is doing? Why is it always the purists and morph haters doing the attacking? Those who are interested in morphs don’t attack the purists for wanting boring wild types even though (as Gavin Bedford has suggested with his recent questions) our animals have literally zero conservation status. Why is it wrong to have an interest in this and for wanting to be able to see the real results of theoretical concepts?

Perhaps that is because they are using pure specimens in their "experiments" with little to no regard for the animals or the hobby. It's also these people who are peddling "unknown" crosses in the species, so the reason you won't see the hackers complaining is simply because the purists are the ones breeding the precursor needed for their "genetic work".

For some people genetics is a fascinating subject and for those of us who are interested in reptiles then obviously reptile genetics are going to be the most fascinating. Tesla, I’m guessing you’re having a go at people who would be considered to be at the forefront of Carpet morphs like Larks in Aus or Precision Reptiles and UK Pythons in Europe. These guys have a strong understanding of an incredibly complex topic and it shows now that they are finally producing exactly what they said they would years ago when their projects were in their infancy.
There are lots of people who have an interest in genetics, myself included. What exactly is your point? It seems to me that you think as long as the final goal is reached the means and the ethical consequences become irrelevant as long as you can predict the final outcome.
Some of us have differing view on what makes a herpetologist and more to the point what makes a herpetologist worthy of praising and to be rather honest the people who rate on my list are the people who have used taxonomy, naturalism and ethical captive management to make a name for themselves rather than breeding a few morphs, some of which existed commonly in the hobby years ago without the huge price tags. Simply what I am saying is I respect those who respect our wildlife and conduct their work in such a manner, I have little respect for those who only care for making their wallets fat and inflating their egos. Too me it's also a need to have information and knowledge on taxonomy, we don't need the same on morphs.



I think it would be completely feasible for someone to buy a morph because they like the look of it and then a couple of months/years down the track to start wondering what sort of babies it could produce. If I were in that position, my first thought would be something along the lines of “where can I go where there are lots of knowledgeable people that I can ask a question of and have the best possible chance of someone who knows the answer responding?”
But hey, maybe I’m just a sucker for not assuming the worst of people straight away...

I think the problem is people who keep reptiles are bunched in to the same category together which I think is completely wrong as I feel there are 2 obvious cliques within it- Pet keepers and herpetologists. Some made their mark on herpetology by describing, classifying and outlining captive keeping others have made a name making "pretty" animals just like ornamental fish breeders.
 
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“With little or no regard for the animal or the hobby”
What effect does it have on the animals? If they are kept in a healthy environment with heat, food and water, I can’t see a problem.
What effect does it have on the hobby? Purists have been complaining about hybrids and morphs for years and yet it is still possible to obtain pure, locality animals if that is your thing.

“the purists are the ones breeding the precursor needed for their "genetic work".”
As Dmnted pointed out, from a DNA stand-point, they are inseparable. So if it’s a Carpet and it looks like a Jungle, it’s a Jungle. A genetic morph doesn’t change depending on the locality of the great-grandfather of its host.

“There are lots of people who have an interest in genetics, myself included. What exactly is your point?”
Maybe I should have been more specific. My point was that people have an interest in genetics from the point of morphs and the potential phenotypes that can be produced by a particular combination of genotypes.

“It seems to me that you think as long as the final goal is reached the means and the ethical consequences become irrelevant as long as you can predict the final outcome.”
It’s not that I think the ethical consequences are irrelevant. I think there are no special consequences. If a “pure” M.s.variegata escapes in Sydney, it would have exactly the same consequence as a mixed M.s.ssp. Maybe we should really be asking about what the ethical consequences of keeping animals in a box are first. If an animal is kept in clean, healthy conditions, what exactly are the consequences on that particular animal from having a combination of locality parents?

“Some of us have differing view on what makes a herpetologist and more to the point what makes a herpetologist worthy of praising”
You are absolutely correct that there are differing views and that there are at least two different camps on this issue. The only problem is that I only ever see one camp bashing the other on here and it’s pretty tiresome to read when you are interested in learning about the potential of these things and have to wade through so much excrement to get anywhere. I personally respect everyone who contributes to the care of wildlife and to the knowledge base for the hobby. What I don’t respect are people who seem to think their opinion is all that matters. Why should everyone else only be allowed to respect the people you consider worthy?

The hobby has and will continue to evolve. I think it would be much more interesting and enjoyable if everyone could stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and stick to whatever part of it holds interest for them. If you want a pure, line bred animal, buy from a breeder who only deals with pure, line bred animals. If you don’t, then go elsewhere. There is room for everyone, so why attack people for taking part in a side of the hobby that you don’t happen to like?
 
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