Woah

Discussion in 'Other Animals and Invertebrate' started by Oscar's, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. Foozil

    Foozil Well-Known Member

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    Wow the hijacking of threads on the forum though... From wasps to disabilities? There are other places to talk about this.
     
  2. Scutellatus

    Scutellatus Well-Known Member

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    If you don't like it then don't participate. This conversation progressed through a natural process and was not hijacked by anybody.
     
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  3. Foozil

    Foozil Well-Known Member

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    True, but why can't we just keep the thread about what it was originally made for?
     
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  4. Imported_tuatara

    Imported_tuatara Well-Known Member

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    either way i feel we should get on track or make a thread about disabilities, this is about wasps and snakes, not disabilities.
     
  5. Scutellatus

    Scutellatus Well-Known Member

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    Because this is how conversations go. Sometimes you get down a track and think how did we get here. There is no point turning around until we've had a look though.
     
  6. Foozil

    Foozil Well-Known Member

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    Also true :p
     
  7. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 APS Veteran APS Veteran

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    Imported_tuatara and Foozil are totally justified in requesting that the thread be brought back on topic. If the OP does not have a right to bring a thread back on topic, then what is the point of them starting the thread in the first place? What about those that wish to read about hyper allergic reactions to toxins and discover the vast majority of the thread is about something else? And those wishing to make a comment about hyper allergic reactions but don’t want to risk wasting their time and energy in doing so, as it is may well be ignored because the conversation is dominated by completely different topics?

    Intentionally or unintentionally, in this particular the topic was hijacked IMO. In the second post a comment was made about how “kids never used to be allergic to peanuts” and schools never had to ban it. Fair enough, as it was at least related to the topic in terms of hyper reactions to allergens. Unfortunately that was then followed by a spurious comment and question about schools dealing with autism, with no explanation of how this linked to the original topic. If that is not taking the discussion off topic, then what is?

    I will add that there are circumstances where a thread sometimes gets diverted by a side issue which is contentious but basically emanates from a post on the topic at hand. Fair enough to let it run for a brief period and see if it is resolved. This usually does not put people off posting on topic at the same time. That is not same as having two or more very different topics running concurrently, to the detriment of the OP’s intended topic.
     
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  8. Scutellatus

    Scutellatus Well-Known Member

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    Considering there weren't any replies to the thread until a week after being posted I fail to see how the thread was hijacked. It has just progressed along a different path, a path worthy of discussion in my opinion.
     
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  9. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 APS Veteran APS Veteran

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    I take your point. However none of us maintained that the content of the off topic discussion was not worthwhile. What we said was that it just not appropriate under the opening post and it should be continued in a thread of its own.

    In this particular instance I actually think the term “hijacked” is inappropriate, but used it because forum users relate to that. What actually happened was that the thread quickly got taken off topic by a comment made and this expanded into array of topics unrelated to the opening post.

    I totally accept we don’t want to stifle active discussion which provides forum readers with food for thought. However, the forum is not structured as a free for all random discussion platform. Threads are topic based and archived for future access. If you ignore that on a regular basis, then not only do current threads lose their relevance to many forum readers/users but archiving becomes a waste of time and effort. The solution to avoid this is so very simple. As was suggested, continue the discussion under an appropriate thread of its own
     
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  10. cement

    cement Subscriber Subscriber APS Veteran

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    The OP raises an issue that looked at by itself, seems pretty small and unrelated to anything more than the fact that because theres a higher number of bees, equals more bee stings. Its typical to have more of a problem where there are higher densities of a population, it's a numbers thing. But in todays world, the higher rates of people sufferring serious allergy problems, not only to bee stings but to a whole plethora of different seemingly unrelated issues is staggering. I am attempting to use this article as a starting point to bring some awareness to a bigger picture, rather then simply reading an article and going "woah!" without any thought to "why?". I mentioned the word autism, which obviously struck a chord with some who took it as the main issue but it wasn't how I meant it to come across, but in the light of 'prevention is better than a cure', this thread may demonstrate a typical human behaviour of ignorantly bumbling along a pathway, only to find ourselves in a situation that with a bit of fore thought could be avoided.
    The article begs the question, why are so many people allergic to bee sting? Is it just because they are? This is the point I am trying to make, because I don't think that is the case. I would love to see the stats on food related allergies that have hospitalised people too, or pharmaceutical drug related deaths and allergies as well, as a ratio to the growth of human population. Would people then start to sit up and take notice that there is something majorly wrong with our society.
    Vaccinations are handed out like lollies, with ABSOLUTELY NO PRIOR HEALTH CHECKS ON THE INDIVIDUAL BEING VACCINATED!!! Yesterday afternoon while listening to the radio on the way to the shops the latest is that they are now going to start vaccinating PREGNANT women. This is nothing more than a crime against humanity and I firmly believe that depositing toxic serum into a woman carrying a foetus that is at the very earliest stages of development, will not only further the allergy problem but will bring about a whole host of more serious issues down the track.
    Pharmaceutical companies do not care about healing people, otherwise they will go out of business. And it is huge business. If you really want to understand the reason for the original article then take a look at the "medicines" we take, how they are derived and administered, and how the medical industry itself plays a part in these statistics.
    We have all heard the catch phrase "side effects", but do we really understand it?

    Or we all could just go back to reading an article about bees and say, "woah". Which in itself leaves it as a one post thread.

    I've been on this planet for over half a century, and seen a lot of changes. The allergy issue is close to my heart and I have seen it destroy people I love, and I have done a lot of research into it. The OP brings up an issue that I beleive the population as a whole needs more awareness about.

    As far as thread hijack goes, so what? An article was put up without any notes from the poster, so who cares what way it goes? I don't think anyone here needs a slap on the wrist from self appointed forum police.
     
  11. Foozil

    Foozil Well-Known Member

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    yeah i agree "hijacked" wasn't really the correct term to use in this situation
     
  12. vampstorso

    vampstorso Very Well-Known Member

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    My husband had the pleasure once of accidentally upsetting some wasps while motorbike riding.
    Went to the emergency room barely breathing, and they kept telling him (I assume simply because he was a young guy) they couldn't help him until he told them what drugs he had taken. They didn't believe him at all that it was wasp stings causing his troubles.
    He passed out and the doctors again harped on his friend saying they wouldn't help until he told them the 'real' story.


    Needless to say he is now rather touchy around stinging insects!
     
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  13. Stompsy

    Stompsy Subscriber Subscriber

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    I very recently discovered I am allergic to antihistamines. I don’t get hay fever so I’d only ever taken them once before and did not have any reaction.

    Recently I went to the doctor as I was feeling itchy all over, constantly. I had changed nothing in my diet or day to day activities to bring on the itchiness and the doctor prescribed me antihistamines. I went home and took one and within an hour I looked as though I had measles. Took another, not recognising the correlation between the welts and medication and woke up the next morning covered from head to toe.

    I then went back to the doctor who prescribed steroids which cleared up the issue. My doctor and the pharamasist were both skeptical of the reaction being due to the medication.

    Fast forward about two months and I take a different antihistamine for another ailment, which lands me in hospital. I blow up again but also can’t stand or move around for long periods and am having trouble breathing. I was tachycardic and required adrenaline and steroids administered intravenously (an ultrasound of my veins was also required as I had blown up to the point where my veins weren’t visible).

    All went well and I was discharged a few hours later. However, the doctors at the hospital were still dubious about the cause being antihistamines as that’s what people take for reactions!

    I was advised to keep note of any future reactions and given a script for an epi pen.

    Needless to say, I won’t be taking antihistamines ever again.
     
  14. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 APS Veteran APS Veteran

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    @cement. Thanks for the explanation. It seems some took the “What’s is going on?” question to be directed at just autism, rather than the whole paragraph, which is not what you intended. An unfortunate misinterpretation. However it happened does not really matter as much as getting things back on track, which is exactly what your last post has done. Good job.

    Someone mentioned that the increase in allergies was only because of an increased population size. That is not correct. The percentage of the population suffering from allergies, and chronic inflammatory diseases like asthma, has doubled to tripled in last 50 years.

    There is nothing new about the basic information on causes of death in Australia. It is available from the Bureau of Statistics and has been on-line for years. The following is an excerpt from a handout I wrote several years ago…
    Cause of Death Av. / Year
    Crocodiles 2
    Snakebite 3
    Bees, Wasps, Ants 3
    Dogs 6
    Horse riding 20
    Beach drowning 55
    River or Creek drowning 75
    When you compare the potential dangers of something like swimming in nature, to that from snakes, it becomes clear that the hazards associated with snakes in this country are commonly way over stated!”

    One thing I disagree with is the connection between immunisation shots and development of allergies. This is something that has been thoroughly investigated and the hard data does not support it. What we do know is that prior to vaccinations epidemics of Diphtheria, Whooping Cough and Measles, along with Tetanus infections, used to kill hundreds every year, despite medical intervention.
     
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  15. cement

    cement Subscriber Subscriber APS Veteran

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    Blue, the adverse effects following immunisation in Australia records, as put out by the Dept of health, shows that immunisation and vaccines can result in differing degrees of adverse effects, from minor injection site reactions to more serious complications. There were 5 deaths on the report in 2014, with 4 of them occurring within days of being vaccinated and 1, 6 weeks later.
    The comment from them is,
    "All deaths were investigated by the TGA and no clear causal relationship with vaccination was found."
    Of course not. It was entirely the individuals own fault because they all had some type of medical condition prior to being vaccinated.
    Now, consider that a human liver function test as done by our local GP's by bloods, can only pick up when a liver is damaged to the point of almost complete failure, it cannot pick up a liver that is just (for want of a better word) sluggish, overloaded or struggling to perform at best levels.
    The reason I use this is because testing for an individuals own levels of organ health and function isn't even considered when offered vaccination. Actually "offering" to an infant or a child is probably the wrong word.
    Vaccines come and go, they list approximately 29 different vaccines, that chop and change as time goes by. Its by no means an exact science, they are delivered to different sections of the community here and there, with some blanket roll outs, some not, they are used and discontinued as whoever is in power at the time sees fit.

    We can disagree on wether vaccination plays a role, large or small role in the populations increased allergy issues, but would you agree that it may be a contributing factor?
    When most disasters happen, it's generally a build up of different factors that culminate in a result. So throw in our polluted environment, stuff that we call food which is really no more then poison, drinking water that really should be filtered and cleaned, plus the cocktail of metals we breathe and the rest ... and we end up with a population of overloaded and toxic organs which directly affects our immunity systems.

    Most allergies are an auto-immune response to our bodies not recognising its own self defence mechanisms. In laymens terms, we attack ourselves.
    Our medical industry has a lot to answer for, but it never will, because it is such huge business and carries so much power, and the majority of the population is uneducated in true health maintenance, and we willingly hand over responsibility for our health to external powers that be. Along with our life savings.

    One thing we can all agree on though is this, the more toxins we intake, the less our own individual immunity system works.
     
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  16. RoryBreaker

    RoryBreaker Well-Known Member

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    tenor.gif
     
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  17. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 APS Veteran APS Veteran

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    @cement I think you have been misinformed by someone about liver function tests. The liver is a critical organ and the largest one in the body with the greatest range of functions. If the liver is not functioning as it should then the chemicals it is supposed to produce will drop below the normal range found in the blood and/or the waste chemicals it processes will increase above the normal range. There are half a dozen blood chemicals that have been identified as sensitive bio-indicators of liver function. In a liver function test these are measured and will show changes to normal levels with even minor changes to liver function. Following that there is a suite of different blood chemicals controlled by the liver that can be measured to ascertain the specific nature of any liver dysfunction. Many of these test have been developed to provide medical practioners with sensitive information on hepatitis sufferers in order to manage this disorder.

    Immunisations prevent millions of deaths world-wide each year. In Australia they are not just administered willy-nilly as a number of people have indicated. The medical fraternity does its best to minimise potential adverse outcomes. They provide clear guidelines for the administration of immunisations…
    http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/i...andbook10-home~handbook10part2~handbook10-2-1

    Someone stated that there is no screening of patients prior to immunisation. That is not correct. The following is a questionnaire that has to be completed prior to being vaccinated.
    http://www.ncirs.edu.au/assets/prov...ccination-screening-checklist_2015-update.pdf

    For those that want to argue that a physical test for screening should be provided, they have no understanding of the massive range of measurements that would involve and the huge cost of employing experts required to do so. And even then, every potential reaction may not be identified.

    The irrefutable fact is that immunisations prevent millions of deaths world-wide each year. Historically the development and use of vaccines has not all been clean sailing. However, we have learned from those mistakes and that is why the development and introduction of any vaccine or improved version is governed by a very clear and strict set of criteria and guidelines. It is in NO WAY an adhoc affair. There are a dozen vaccines currently recommended and they these do not alter ‘willy nilly’ – refer to the first article referenced above.

    There is more I would be happy to discuss but I think that is probably sufficient for the moment.

    One last comment that I feel needs to be made. I am aware that a percentage of the large pharmaceutical companies and other health industry related suppliers are driven by profits rather than concern for human welfare. Such companies are known to exert inappropriate pressure on certain medical service suppliers to utilise their products to the exclusion of other treatments that may be more effective. It would also seem that a percentage of these corrupt practices are sustained by political interference.

    Irrespective of all the fore-going, were it not for good doctors and the medical fraternity, I would have been dead several times over. Maybe this is why I tend to take generalised criticism of the medical fraternity, where specific relevant details are lacking, with a grain of salt.
     
  18. cement

    cement Subscriber Subscriber APS Veteran

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    I'm coming from personal experience Bluetongue, as appropriate as it is to show the protocols you have shown here, that doesn't mean they happen. As a parent of three, we were NEVER given any such screening forms for our kids, nor have I ever received any of this info about vaccination prior to being offered a vaccine. And as mentioned I was offered tetanus only 6 months ago. You have used this protocol to show us what SHOULD take place, but if I personally have recently been offered a vaccine and this was absent, it seems all to political. In fact I do suffer from an auto-immune disease, and at the time they offered it to me I was dealing with an infection in the joint of my elbow. All up, with the 4 courses of anti-biotics it took to pull up the infection, and then the subsequent cold that almost had me hospitalised because of what the anti-biotics did to my system I missed 2.5 months of work this last winter. I am still recovering now, but because i use different path of healing and I got fairly smashed it takes a little while. I am repairing my gut, and my liver.

    From the pre vaccine handbook you put up is the following-
    "The safety and effectiveness of some vaccines may be suboptimal in persons who are immunocompromised" I would underline the word safety if I knew how.

    Also, how does this handbook come into play if the govt now lawfully bans un vaccinated kids from childcare or school? Is the handbook law, or is it just a guideline for what sorta, kinda should happen? Because its the first time Ive ever seen it, certainly wasn't mentioned to me 6 months ago.

    Concerning liver function tests, been there done that too. You cannot have chronic fatigue, a body covered in unexplained blisters and rashes, a brain that can't think clearly, chronic asthma and bronchitis, double bout of pneumonia and a swollen guts without having a compromised liver. Yet my liver tests showed everything was AOK.
    So when the doctors don't have an answer, but offer drugs that may help, but also may cause more side effects, what good are these written legislations and protocols now?

    When all I had to do was eliminate certain foods (well, a freakin hell of a lot of foods, or what we all see as normal food), and then use certain natural medicines as prescribed by a practitioner (before you turn on me with charlatan or hippy or whatever, check out companies like Metagenics) to support organ health while I recovered. And it was a long recovery.
    If I get stung by a bee it is completely gone in 30 mins. Green ant bites (our southern ones, not the tropical soft variety) are dealt with by my system in less time and hoppy joes the same.

    We don't need to be bent over by these doctors and drug companies, there are extremely valid alternate resources out there, but there certainly is a need for the surgeons and hospitals and nurses that do a fantastic job, no denying that at all, but when it gets back to the allergy issue and the question why, there are answers.

    The alternate resources I talk about are natural products. Other then good healthy preferably organic fruit veges and meat, they must only be prescribed by a practitioner, but they are natural derivatives and the only side effect is very good health. Now the interesting part.... drug companies CANNOT patent, natural resources. They find what works in nature and then build it in a test tube with chemicals so that they own the formula. This is why it works but you have side effects.

    I apologise to you Bluetongue if my posts seen generalised without the scientific papers that you find and put up, I don't have uni education only life. But the practitioner who has defenatly put me on track (2nd time now) does, and they would be able to talk to you about this and prove what they say. Personally, the only proof I need is having the experience of what I have been through, not what I read.
    When you put up a paper that may or may not be actually used in the real world, then that grain of salt can go both ways can't it?

    I still stand by my original point that there is a reason for the increase in allergic reaction to more and more things, but you won't find the answer in a paper or in the medical fraternity either for that matter.
     
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  19. Scutellatus

    Scutellatus Well-Known Member

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    I am a Father of five kids from the age of three up to eleven and can definitely attest to there being no screening forms given. Your kid gets jabbed, you have to hang around for half an hour to see if there are any extreme side effects and you are then sent on your way with a piece of paper that tells you some minimal side effects to look for.
     
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  20. Pauls_Pythons

    Pauls_Pythons Subscriber Subscriber Power Seller

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    Same with my kids and grand children.
    All seems a little irresponsible from the authorities even though I am an advocate of child immunisation. Without proper screening there are always going to be those who slip the net and have reactions later.
    I'm of the opinion that this is due to the lack of resources more than anything else.
     
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