Discussion in 'Australian Snakes' started by pttom1, Jun 9, 2010.
all i ever aim to do is cover my costs and at best finance new herps that i want
As a rookie, I'll offer another perspective.
From what I've read of this thread, many of the people responding are hard-core hobbyists who feel that large collections are the only way to go, or that small collections are only worth the cost of maintenance if you paid $500< for your snake.
Even though I am new to the hobby, I try to devote sufficient time, attention and money to EACH of my pets for them to live as comfortably as possible, and have their individual needs met. I'm rather against large collections for this reason. I don't think of animals as collectible items. If you do, I think you need to re-assess your priorities as a pet carer.
My hatchie spotted python (Monty) cost me $180 not including the travel costs to get to where the seller was. I paid $55 for a five year licence, and $6 for my log book. I do not consider the costs associated with his care a burden or a waste because he's not some super-breed. I would spend just as much on enclosure/heating/lighting/stimulus for a $20 snake as I would on a $1600 snake. A good owner is a good owner. A bad owner is a bad owner. It doesn't matter how much the pet costs to begin with.
I think Bushfire put it very well a couple of pages back:
Well said graphitebeans!
i wish WA is never like this!
i agree with graphite beans in the care aspect, but in regard to what was quoted by bushfire, i can see that working with a bit of work, but the biggest problem that i can see is that people are still going to breed if they have a professional license or not, it will just cause more sales of off-license animals or more releases into the bush once people have recorded their maximum number of clutches. I agree with what you are saying, i would hate to see the price of snakes fall to $20 as i think people are entitled to make a little for their investment of time and $$, but what would happen if the black market was flooded?
Trouble today is it seems a lot of keepers want everything right now and cheap.Not so long ago a lot of us built our collections up over time using any money made selling clutches to fund other species.Bred macs,sell clutch use the money to buy bredli then breed them, sell clutch use the money to buy bhps etc.
As Ramsayi said it appears a lot of keepers want everything today for next to nothing and no effort and to criticize those that have been around a while and built up their collections over many years like many people l started with carpets and traded and worked extra to get extra....cheers solar 17 [Baden]
some people will vet and some won't. I knew a guy who spent $300 having his three year old rat treated for cancer.
There's a lot of interesting viewpoints in this thread but most of them are just plain wishful thinking.
None of you have a right to tell any other person what they should or shouldn't breed and those who criticise others for breeding 'ordinary' animals were no doubt just as likely to have done so when they first started out in this hobby. The market sets the desirability and therefore price of any particular animal and sellers must have the ability to respond by lowering prices if necessary. Ultimately each individual will decide at what point it's no longer sustainable to breed a particular type and if they think it's worth breeding for $10 per animal then so be it.
mind you I have tried breeding for 2 seasons and only hatched 1 hatchy which I gave away to my brother, so as it may seem like I only want the investment side of it is false I do it for the love of creating something different to whats getting around. I do it because I love it. but that extra that I could make would be grate I could finally get the female BHP I been after for the last 2 years I could get a B&W Jungle from Collin I could buy another female capie, I could build all my snakes new enclosures. this would be lovely for what ever I made back to get back into my reps as I don't work its the best way doing something I love then being forsed to get up every day to drag myself into a ****e job I hate just to fund my snakes.
I would just love to think that when my line is strong and I'm willing to part from any then I'd want to make a lil back to fund my line and get my next projects going as well. I've given myself 10 - 15 years to get a few hatchies to start a line I'm already up to 5years of trying to get pairings 2 years of successful pairing but 2 bad seasons 1 hatch from 58 eggs (almost gave up) 3rd year this year. going on 7 years keeping pythons. I've sold and swaped, bought top shelf and been out of pocket, borrowed and traded just to get what I have today. I know that theres no way I'll be able to sell my capies for the amount of a well known breeder with a pure line or a name in this herp world but I'd want to think when I get there to having some for sale that I could still make half of what I payed for the parents at least.
In the early days a certain few held the ace card when it came to selling reptiles, as it was hard to find breeders.
In time, some that were unscrupulous have gone by the way side, which is a good thing. The good and decent guys are still powering on and will always sell their stock at decent prices.
see this is the way I see it as well if your in the hobby this is how all of us thats been around for a long time has always done it, taken the time, the hard and the stressful times of breeding something then selling clutch to fund next project, I just don't understand why so many people these days arn't willing to do the same or if you don't breed then do swaps of what you have already and upgrade, take the time to save and think of what you'd like as your next project. but hell if you have the cash then get it, don't start complaining because everything is so exspensive. thats the way its always been and should stay. and to anyone that reconds that breeding should be for the love of it is right but it is and should be classed as a job as it takes half a year of hard/stressful/sad/enjoyment and excitment out of every breeder its hard work and cost heaps to pull off so it should be looked at making a profit or to cover those costs and make a little bit from it for all that you went through to hatch a few killer looking animals to start your collection or lines. prices shouldn't be lowered just to suit the new trend of power buyers wanting everything for cheap. and putting breeders out of pocket. I don't agree with people that want to breed anything there not really interested in or with something thats already around by the thousands like childreni's and spotteds. why not get something thats different to most try ya luck with that work out what you want to try achieve say 5 - 10 year plan make your own line and try keep this hobby safe and pricing should stay steady for another few years before the next drop.
If someone was serious about wanting to know how much tax to pay, asking the director the dec wouldnt be as useful as asking the ato auditor about herpetology.
If you ask the ato to audit you Im sure you will find the answer you seek.
Absolutely right. The only difference is - when we started there were only a handful of us and breeding at the current rate didn't exist.
Some of you drawn parallels to dog breeding - there is a fundamental difference in that dogs are pets and reptiles are native protected fauna managed by a relevant state gov. authority. I said many times that it's wrong because what we have today is a product of herpetoculture, not wildlife, however, that's where we are whether we like it or not.
Although I may not do myself any favors when it comes to sales, I fully support the NSW licensing system, where newbies are given the opportunity to gain experience with low key species before advancing to the more husbandry demanding animals. I don't necessarily agree with the choice of selected species in each category but I fully support the concept - if fact, it would be beneficial if the authorities had more resources to guide and control the keeping / breeding activities by beginners to prevent over-breeding. If unwanted reptiles end up in the bush, the authorities (and the animal welfare nuts) will have to take more drastic steps. I wish other states would take up this licensing system, perhaps even introduce more than 2 categories.
Well said Nagraj, couldn't agree more.
The price of many species in Australia will remain artificially high anyway due to the market distortion caused by different licensing requirements. These requirements ensure the relative scarcity of many species and allow people to make money from them
In the USA the market for the majority of reptiles is completely uninhibited and due to the large scale participation of pet shops in the selling of reptiles (something we avoid here for the most part) the market is much more competitive. This is why the price of reptiles is relatively low in the US but it will never reach that point here due to the regulations governing reptile ownership. That is a good thing in my opinion as it stops a lot of impulse buyers from owning reptiles but the price of many R1 species remains way too high and they will continue to fall.
anouc, I ask you again, if all is so good in the US, why are so many reptiles being dumped in the Everglades and why are the authorities clamping down of ownership of large pythons?
Rather than following the US model, it may be smarter to prevent it from happening while there is time.
A lot of people seem to have a fundamentally flawed concept of supply and demand... prices will drop because more people want pet snakes and there are more available. Nothing you can do about it.
Pythons Rule for some reason I couldn't quote your post, but in it you say "it should be classed as a job"- I bet if you were told to get an ABN and start paying tax you wouldn't think that way.
Also some people have been saying to start out with more common species, breed and trade to less common/higher end species and then a few lines later in the same post criticising how people should stop breeding spotteds because there are so many thousands available. Come on people get your arguments straight haha
I think your all crying over nothing. The market will sort itself out as far as prices are concerned. I think the next few years are really going to show who is in it for the love and who is in it for the money.
And for everyone whinging saying hobby this, hobby that, i'm just trying to break even to cover my hobby costs. My hobby is fishing and shooting. It cost me about $5k to set myself up for shooting, and then there are the running costs which are pretty bloody expensive during the right seasons. Fishing i have atleast a grands worth of rods/reels and tackle and then i also have a $30k boat also with running cost that are comparable to running a large reptile collection. I make nothing back on either of these hobbies and am running at a significant loss. But i'm happy to spend that money because i love it.
If you read my last post properly you'll see that I don't agree with the US system, I was just using it as an example of what will happen as the domestic reptile market matures. I think the regulations governing reptile ownership here are very sensible, but I maintain that there is a huge price adjustment taking place for most R1 species anyway.
Earlville Pet Shop - Childrens Python - $580
Prices going down? Someone needs to tell them!