Zebra Carpets

[AmazingMorelia]

Not to get into the rights and wrongs of cross breeding, but it needs to be stated that there are more than just colour and pattern differences that seperate the subspecies of carpets, but there are also differences on a physical basis. Keep a Darwin as you would keep a MD or Bredli and you will open yourself up to RIs and shedding problems. Keep a Diamond the same as you keep a Coastal or a Darwin and you will kill them. Through many, many thousands of years of evolution have given us what we have today, and for so called herp people to say differences are just polygenic colour and pattern is concerning.

 

[GeckoJosh]

Has anyone bred Super Zebs here in Australia yet?

Surely someone knows?

 

[TrueBlue]

serpentaria, I dont have proof, same as you dont have proof that they are. IJs seem to have a habit of popping out the odd unusual animal so it certainly seems plauseable. Ive heard it from too many people too many times not to have considerable dought that they are pure jungles.

bts morphs, there are alot of pure lines of morelia in the hobby, and some of them as well as many other species of snake held in collections hold conservational value on a number of different levels.

 

[champagne]

Not to get into the rights and wrongs of cross breeding, but it needs to be stated that there are more than just colour and pattern differences that seperate the subspecies of carpets, but there are also differences on a physical basis. Keep a Darwin as you would keep a MD or Bredli and you will open yourself up to RIs and shedding problems. Keep a Diamond the same as you keep a Coastal or a Darwin and you will kill them. Through many, many thousands of years of evolution have given us what we have today, and for so called herp people to say differences are just polygenic colour and pattern is concerning.

That is a very old way of thinking that comes from the days when most snakes were wild caught not captive bred.
I have kept all my snakes at the same temps and humidity including gtp's for over a decade with no problems. Just because snakes in the northern parts of Australia have adapted to handle high temps doesn't mean they need them to survive. Also snakes from the north hide during most of the day in cooler places only come out once it cools down. All pythons function at the same optimal temperature. There are snakes in the North America that live in places that get 6ft of snow each year, does this mean you need to put snow in their enclosure for them to survive?

 

[champagne]

serpentaria, I dont have proof, same as you dont have proof that they are. IJs seem to have a habit of popping out the odd unusual animal so it certainly seems plauseable. Ive heard it from too many people too many times not to have considerable dought that they are pure jungles.

bts morphs, there are alot of pure lines of morelia in the hobby, and some of them as well as many other species of snake held in collections hold conservational value on a number of different levels.

There are very few animals that hold conservational value and none would be a Morelia sub... You can think what ever you want but they are "pets" that if a wild population disappear, they wont be able to be used to repopulate.

 

[TrueBlue]

I think that you have missed the point he was trying to make. That they are different in a number of different ways, behaviour, climatic conditions, even morphologically.

 

[AmazingMorelia]

You can try to talk around it any way you like, it doesnt change the facts. This isnt a take on cross breeding, its pointing out real facts about the evolution of morelia subspecies. The line that all carpets are exactly the same other than pattern and colour is false. You cannot argue that keeping a Diamond at the same temps as Darwin is bad for a Diamonds health. It is. Dont try and down play the real differences on a genetic level between the subspecies to try and vindicate why you need to cross a Bredli with a jungle.

 

[TrueBlue]

btsmorhps.

Some animals (morelia sp) were taken off an australian island a number of years ago for conservation reasons. And there are many other speceis that can, have, and will hold conservational value.
You dont seem to know much about whats being kept in the country at all do you.

 

[Ramsayi]

You can try to talk around it any way you like, it doesnt change the facts. This isnt a take on cross breeding, its pointing out real facts about the evolution of morelia subspecies. The line that all carpets are exactly the same other than pattern and colour is false. You cannot argue that keeping a Diamond at the same temps as Darwin is bad for a Diamonds health. It is. Dont try and down play the real differences on a genetic level between the subspecies to try and vindicate why you need to cross a Bredli with a jungle.

Some of the stuff being written is astounding.According to some logic I can keep say a darwin in an outside aviary in the southern states will no ill effects.They may have adapted to handle high temps but in no way have they adapted to handle low temps.

 

[champagne]

You can try to talk around it any way you like, it doesnt change the facts. This isnt a take on cross breeding, its pointing out real facts about the evolution of morelia subspecies. The line that all carpets are exactly the same other than pattern and colour is false. You cannot argue that keeping a Diamond at the same temps as Darwin is bad for a Diamonds health. It is. Dont try and down play the real differences on a genetic level between the subspecies to try and vindicate why you need to cross a Bredli with a jungle.

no one should cross a Bredli with any of the subs because that would be a species cross. Yes the Morelia subs have more difference then just colour and pattern but once crossed back after the 4th generation you can not tell if its pure or not as they look the same. The fact that these snakes will never be used or released in the wild what is the problem? And like I said all Morelia's can be kept at the same temps and humidity even Gtp don't need high temps and high humidity. How are diamond crosses surviving if this isn't possible?

 

[champagne]

Some of the stuff being written is astounding.According to some logic I can keep say a darwin in an outside aviary in the southern states will no ill effects.They may have adapted to handle high temps but in no way have they adapted to handle low temps.

who said that? I said they can both be kept in the middle temp range because they both have the same optimal body temp... I didn't say a Darwin can be kept at a low temp that a diamond python has adapted to handle for short periods of time. But I do have friends that keep diamond pythons outside in Brisbane all year round no problems tho

 

[champagne]

btsmorhps.

Some animals (morelia sp) were taken off an australian island a number of years ago for conservation reasons. And there are many other speceis that can, have, and will hold conservational value.
You dont seem to know much about whats being kept in the country at all do you.

And what is happening with these animals? Is there a scientific based breeding program to increase numbers? Are they being bred selectively only for health not colour or pattern? I highly doubt they will ever release any back into the wild...

 

[Pythoninfinite]

That is a very old way of thinking that comes from the days when most snakes were wild caught not captive bred.
I have kept all my snakes at the same temps and humidity including gtp's for over a decade with no problems. Just because snakes in the northern parts of Australia have adapted to handle high temps doesn't mean they need them to survive. Also snakes from the north hide during most of the day in cooler places only come out once it cools down. All pythons function at the same optimal temperature. There are snakes in the North America that live in places that get 6ft of snow each year, does this mean you need to put snow in their enclosure for them to survive?

Gee, there are a few fundamental flaws in some of those statements... Surviving is very different to thriving. GTPs maybe aren't as fussy as some seem to think, but they are a niche animal with fundamentally different requirements to most other pythons. Try raising GTP babies as you would a clutch of Carpets, and many of them will die with adhered and unremoveable first sheds. You seem to have a very simplistic view of the evolutionary differences between these forms.

Jamie

 

[champagne]

Gee, there are a few fundamental flaws in some of those statements... Surviving is very different to thriving. GTPs maybe aren't as fussy as some seem to think, but they are a niche animal with fundamentally different requirements to most other pythons. Try raising GTP babies as you would a clutch of Carpets, and many of them will die with adhered and unremoveable first sheds. You seem to have a very simplistic view of the evolutionary differences between these forms.

Jamie

I do raise GTP clutches exactly like coastals with no problems... If you have low temps with high humidity you get problems, if you have high temps with low humidity you have problems. Also the food has to be well hydrated, I believe this plays a lot in gtp's and all carpets for that matter. Yes at the start there were a few fatalities but I haven't had a Gtp die, prolapse or stuck shed in years. And can you please explain thriving because I have a Darwin female that is 12years old kept at the same temps as all the others and still producing large viable clutches every year, just want to make sure I've got all my fundamental right.

 

[TrueBlue]

hahaha, no offence intended but some people just have no idea and never will. You are the perfect person who is keeping animals for the wrong reason and will never have a real understanding of what they even are.

 

[mungus]

You get what u pay for...............
PURE jungle zebs with high yelow and black markings will still cost u top dollar.............simple !
These put togher will produce the high quality yellow super form, which imo is a beautiful snake.
The problem out there is people dont have the patience to breed Zeb jungles to high yellow jungles over and over again to achieve a highly coloured priced zeb.
Their to much in a hurry the put a muddy zeb to muddy zeb to produce a substandard coloured super form.
This might be due to the $$ gain that they would miss out on waiting.
Yes there will be a few about in a couple of years, but quaility will still cost $$.........especially the pure form.
The crosses will be exciting as well, zebs albino's, granites etc............exciting times imo.
Cant wait

 

[Pythoninfinite]

"At the start there were few fatalities..." so what did you have to change to prevent those fatalities? Perhaps note that GTP babies are a bit different to other Morelia?

I agree with you about Darwins, in enclosures, and the other Carpet morphs. But if you go to each extreme - Diamonds to GTPs, if you don't pay some heed to the environmental niches in which they live, they will not thrive.

But having said all that, you're DEFINITELY the man to see if anyone has husbandry problems !

Jamie

 

[champagne]

Yes the was a few fatalities because every book you read says they need high humidity then other carpets which isn't true so once I stopped with the high humidity no more problems and all my carpets thrive at a high temp of 27. You can make the smart remarks about my husbandry technics but that's why everyone does exactly what the book says instead of thinking why you are providing that environment and what the snake actually needs.

 

[mungus]

Regarding Husbandry.........I think some members should remember they live in glass houses..........

 

[champagne]

hahaha, no offence intended but some people just have no idea and never will. You are the perfect person who is keeping animals for the wrong reason and will never have a real understanding of what they even are.

I actually don't keep or breed crosses... The only morph I keep is a pair of pure albino darwins, apart from that 90% of my collection is wires never to be release animals or wild caught/ 100% known localities. I don't breed for stripes or hypos ect I only breed for health, size ect. I'm not into morphs but have a lot of friends with large morph collections that I can still look at an appreciate their beauty. I would love to be able to bank large collections of wild caught animals in a scientific breeding program before they are lost but the way the government protects them is by shutting the gate until they are gone for ever. Yes I do believe that all the east coast sub species are just slight variations of the same snake but all the locality variations should still be banked.