Zebra Carpets

[Wing_Nut]

Many of us raise animals that are destined to end in a freezer. Where do we draw the line? What makes it ok for one animal and not for another? With all due respect, what happens to the line bred or pure animals that don't look right, or are simply not up to scratch? Or the animals that are dumped on the market and are sold unscrupulously to inexperienced or novice keepers who end up dead in a year? What makes a pure breeder more ethical that a jag breeder? Lumping them all into one basket it unfair and counterproductive. Almost every arguement could be equally applied to 'purists' who breed year in year out without care or cause for what happens with the thousands of surplus animals. It's a very fine line to play an ethical card, or argue about the morality of a situation.

Human nature is a disgusting thing, and I'm sure if the truth about animal activists came out most of the "normal" people amongst us would be disgusted as well. There are simply far too many people with grand ideas about moral standards and ethics and almost none with any clue how to move forward.

Having said that, both sides of the fence all make valid points. The reality is that all streams of reptile keeping will remain and forcing one or the other underground or into hiding will bode poorly for the whole community.

Wing_Nut

 

[TrueBlue]

wingnut, sorry but disagree with most of what you have said. " many of us raise animals that are destined to end in a freezer", hell not sure who you deal with but thats absurd. Ive never had to put anything ive bred in the freezer. The odd deformed animal may get put down in its best interest after hatching, but that happens with every animal on the planet. Other than that all the young i breed find homes. They are pure animals so all of them hold value.

If some humans set up a breeding program for say, epilepsy which is a neurological disorder, would that be ethical??. Hell you would probally get arrested. But its fine to do much the same thing with snakes.?? I think not.!!!

 

[Wing_Nut]

I wasn't referring to just reptiles. Rats, quail, chickens, pigeons, rabbits, sheep, cows.... All our lives are full of animals that are bred for the sole purpose of dying, for whatever reason, most of which end up in a freezer.

With all due respect Trueblue, your animals are of the highest quality, and you and your animals represent the tip of the iceberg, for every breeder like yourself who has top quality animals, there will be many who have not reached that level. In general, most animals are no where near as valuable as some that you have shown, and will in truth have far less value.

Wing_Nut

 

[Shotta]

from what i gleaned from os breeders zebra morph came from pure jungle and this

!Paul Harris of UK Pythons,who was based in Germany at the time, produced the first Zebra morph from a Jungle x Jungle pairing
re Zebra's
as far as i know they don't have a high success of a hatch rate,a lot of them die in the egg

also most of the ones that do hatch,have some kinking issues

 

[TrueBlue]

Pure line animals that as you say are "not up to scratch", still all get sold because they ARE up to scratch, they are pure blood animals.

 

[Wing_Nut]

Again, with respect, there are programs and research institutions who do in fact breed animals with epilepsy and other disorders, it's certainly not unheard of and no one gets arrested. My point is, who sets the moral compass, who makes any of us the ethical referee.

Wing_Nut

 

[onimocnhoj]

I agree with many of your points Wing_Nut, as we all indulge in some level of cruelty the instant we caged animals for our personal pleasure. It continues to be questioned throughout the captive animal's life. It is another argument when it comes to the deaths irresponsible/incompetent keepers are accountable for annually with it's own list of ethical questions..

When I look at the hundreds of pythons I have personally bred/raised over the years I would have euthanised less than ten individuals due to birth deformities or a questionably 'happy life'.

If more people with genuine experiences could share more information to the public (particularly to the inexperienced looking to buy) many heartaches and misinformed decisions could be avoided.

 

[Wing_Nut]

Trueblue, to illustrate my point, if the Jags you are referring to that end up in the freezer where humanely culled and used for a purpose, say feeding other reptiles that eat other reptiles, would that make the concept any less ethical?

Wing_Nut

 

[TrueBlue]

Im talking about doing it in humans. We can do it to animals for research and in jag breeders for money, But if it was humans it wouldnt be allowed. Thats wrong.

 

[TrueBlue]

Hell no. Jags are being bred knowing that they will have a neurological problem, its a given.
All jags will show this during their life. Most breeders always use the same old rubbish selling line that none or only 1 or 2 young in the clutch show signs of neuro blah blah blah. What they dont tell you is that this is normal because most wont show signs at that age. As they grow and age the fun begins.

 

[Wing_Nut]

I guess that would depend entirely on where you were born and how you were raised. Are we so narrow minded to believe the relatively high standard of medical care available to us today was the result of doing no "wrong"? Stem cell research is a modern day example. It's "wrong" in a lot of "civilised" countries, but not in others. But the same research outcomes will be applied equally to our medical care. Again, if popular thought is that it is wrong, you won't stop it happening, you just wont hear about it. I guess that makes it far less wrong.

Trueblue, best you don't eat chicken, after all they almost all are the result of breeding for genetic abnormalities. A bird with no feathers, how us that ethical? But it happens all the same. And much like "pure" morphs, all genetic abnormalities. Are you sure there won't be a fatal gene appearing in your line? Have you tested the progeny for lifespan and genetic health? Where do you draw the line?

Wing_Nut

 

[TrueBlue]

If a fatal gene or simular appeared i would stop breeding them. So far all the animals from all generations that i have bred have shown no signs of ill health. All clutches have been normal with robust young. So far so good.

 

[Wing_Nut]

I agree with the so good, the only downside is I can't have them where I live. If all breeders adopted the kind of approach and thought through each decision they made then the need for these kinds of discussions would be mute. For the record, none of the above is meant to criticise you individually, and should like all things be taken with a pinch of salt. It is a general commentary, and those who do hold themselves to a high moral standard should be applauded. My point being, who are we to judge.

Wing_Nut

 

[SpilotaFreak78]

serpentaria, Sorry but maybe you should do more reasearch, jags were supposed to be from 2 pure coastals but it in reality it came out that one if not both were IJ carpets, yes another morph of IJs. If you think that the zebra shown in this thread is pure, then have another good look at it.
I agree 100 % with the zulu warrior, let anyone belive they are pure if they want, lifes like that lol.

I don't ned to do anything you tell me as I was not talking about Jags, only Zebras, not my fault Zulu is wrong

 

[TrueBlue]

Belive what you want, I honestly dont care what you think.

 

[zulu]

Its all "witchcraft" to turn mongrels into something respectable.

 

[pythons unleashed]

The line of thought that all carpets are identical due to the results of DNA testing is comparable to when man thought the Earth was flat. Remember that these latin names for subspecies are always changing as we know more, but most importantly these are simply names given by humans for humans. Does anyone really think that all childrens pythons got excited the day they went from Liasis to Antaresia?? All of our animals are in their geographical locations for a reason. Reasons we will probably never fully comprehend.

There wouldn't be many breeders who would have line bred siblings enough times to say much about the inheritable traits present in their collections let alone the mode of inheritance. We have been spoilt for choice with obtaining animals from a variety of sources and very few would have kept the gene pool small enough to isolate much of their knowings. I suppose if it's the end result that people are after, does the mode matter that much?

If patternless carpets become available from purebred coastals, would it matter if they were simply progeny of a polygenic production? If the funky RP high yellow jungles are the same, wouldn't you want to buy a pair of those or does everything have to be immediately compatibility with another morph to be desired by the masses?

I truly believe many of the future morphs will be homozygous recessive and co-dominant. I breed Striped Tablelands Carpets and Striped Macs among others.. I have outcrossed and inbred with the mode of inheritance pointing at co-dominance with a super form. The great thing is the super forms don't die lol! We simply don't have enough time clocked up to be certain the genetics isn't here in purebred projects.

There's only one way to find out..

Regarding the authenticity of available progeny. It will always come down to reputation of the breeder and the level of confidence one requires to be satisfied with their purchase. There would be very few, well known breeders who could be trusted selling accurately described stock if they were keeping jags as well as thoroughbreds. I would love to say everyone breeding/selling snakes is honest, but this fallacy is far from truth.

This completely applies to any breeder in the herp world, but I believe many with elaborate jag projects/collections have created a small cloud of doubt hovering over them.

Just to think John I though you and I where friends but after reading some of your post lately about jags it looks like we are not. I have over 300 jags now in my collection all but 8 I breed, to this date I have only sold on 20 jags and gave away most of their sibs and keeped back what I now use as breeders. I still have the pair of pure diamonds I purchased from you years ago and yes I have crossed them to my jags but now only breed them pure.

What I ask is what sort of breeder do you think I am now considering what little money I have made from my jags and Zebra's. All are welcome to comment if they fill they need to.

 

[zulu]

Just to think John I though you and I where friends but after reading some of your post lately about jags it looks like we are not. I have over 300 jags now in my collection all but 8 I breed, to this date I have only sold on 20 jags and gave away most of their sibs and keeped back what I now use as breeders. I still have the pair of pure diamonds I purchased from you years ago and yes I have crossed them to my jags but now only breed them pure.

What I ask is what sort of breeder do you think I am now considering what little money I have made from my jags and Zebra's. All are welcome to comment if they fill they need to.

He is still your friend just voices his oppinion ,ive got friends that breed jags and zebs etc they say whats on their mind and its no problem , if respect is there you can say what you want. You know who the lowys are theyll go for insulting personal messages and stuff ,no up front goullies.

 

[onimocnhoj]

pythons unleashed..

I am not quite that shallow mate. I don't think people with jags are the incarnation of satan. My comments on this forum are not thrown up in a haste of emotions to humiliate individuals or groups. However, these are my opinions on the jag scene - that's it.

If you have so many jags, could you please inform the readers of this thread (and every other second thread at the moment) what do you do with specimens suffering from extreme neurological problems? How many do you have in an average clutch? Where do you draw the line?

Please share your experiences.

My concern lies with your give aways and not your income. If you have 300 jags, that equates to a lot of siblings.

Where did/do they all go?

 

[longqi]

I have over 300 jags now in my collection all but 8 I breed, to this date I have only sold on 20 jags and gave away most of their sibs and keeped back what I now use as breeders.

That is a scary big number of siblings being sold or given away each year
100 females x 15 hatchies -5jags =1000 siblings =500 jags
150 females x 15 hatchies -5 jags =1500 siblings =750jags
200 females x 15 hatchies -5 jags =2000 siblings =1000 jags

So if you keep all the jags again those figures really explode in 3 years time??

In 10 years time you will need Sydney Olympic stadium to house them??

How many other jag breeders are doing similar things?