At a total loss as to what happened (sudden death). Heath / Rosenbergs Monitor.

[Tobe404]

Hey guys,

Pretty devastated at the moment. Got a Rosenbergs Monitor on 9/9. Six weeks old. Passed away on 6/12. So around 4 months old.

Housed in a 3L x 2D x 1.5H enclosure. Same I used for the Yellow Spotted Monitor when it was younger.

Yes... it and anything I put in there was thoroughly cleaned before being used.

Was a bit hit and miss eating to start with but eventually got it eating pretty much daily. Basking temps were anywhere from 45-60c. Depending where on the tile I took the temp reading. Had a CFL UVB bulb and a Halogen 75 watt Globe right next to each other (single to double adapter in v shape). UVB on the left. Halogen on the right. (The long style UVB tube was buggered so I used the CFL as an alternative).

Yes I know in the past I've said that Monitors don't need UVB. But since it was very little and couldn't eat whole prey at the very beginning. I decided to use a UVB Bulb.

Had single tiles on bricks (gaps in between the bricks that could also be used as hides) stacked across the length of the enclosure.
Hot end had a few tiles stacked on top of each other.
Coolest end had the water bowl (would occasionally shift it to the warm end to increase humidity and aid in shedding).
Would also on the odd occasion give it a bath in tepid water out in the Sun.
Middle had a log to hide in with the UVB beaming down on it.
Right side had the halogen beaming down on it. Also had a cave hide at the hot end.
Coir Peat as Substrate.
Lite mist daily.

Main foods were Woodies (dusted in Calc/D3). tiny bits of cut up chicken neck (or as an alternative Premi-Yum Chicken Mince), Chicken Breast. Liver.
Crickets (very rarely), Whole Pinkie Mice and / or chopped up Fuzzy Mice/Pinkie Rats.

Had bowls for food and water. Although most of the time it took food straight off the tweezer sized forceps I used.
Would also take chucks of meat off the tiles if left in there during the day.

One thing that worried me a little. Even when finally getting it to eat consistently it didn't seem to grow or put on much weight.
Having said that I know it grew as it used to wedge itself inside the holes/cracks in the hollowed out log I had in there for it.
At a certain point it could no longer wedge inside those cracks.

Two days before it passed it ate some Crickets then was out and about the next day.
It was a relatively hot day so I thought I'd cut up a pinkie Rat and see how many pieces it would take.
Took 2 out of 3. Nothing seemed unusual or out of the ordinary. Sprinting and even jumping around as a Monitor should.

The day after having the Rat Pieces it wasn't out much. Would move from end to end but wasn't overly active.

Went to check on the Rosenbergs the next day and it was down the cool end. Unfortunately it had passed away.

Guess I'm just wondering what people's opinions are as to what could of possibly gone wrong so quickly.

For almost a week now I've been racking my bran.

If you're going to leave negative comments or anything like that. Please don't. I feel sh!t enough as it is.

Thank you all.

 

[user 43767]

Hi, I`ll make this reply fairly short just for the moment, understand I am NOT trying to make you feel worse just offering some reliable advise in order it doesn`t happen again, as far as it may well be husbandry related:
You cannot house even a 4 month old juvenile, medium sized varanid in such a small enclosure other than VERY temporarily, and rehousing is usually very stressful. You say you force handled it (before it`s even acclimated, by force bathing it) why do that?
Varanids absolutely DO benefit from exposure to UVB whether real or decent artificial (although the type you offered was not good enough)
There is NEVER a need to feed lean meats or mixes, and the monitor would have been more than capable of ingesting whole prey from day one ("whole prey" does NOT refer to vertebrate animals, it refers to the complete animal, meaning even a small insect is whole prey..
Varanids cannot metabolise artificial D3, although they can store it, it has ZERO effect on blood serum levels and can be overdosed, so do not offer it. The same is true for Bearded dragons, perhaps many more species/families, it`s a multi million dollar world wide industry, of course "they" will tell us our animals need it...
How were you measuring the ambient and basking surface temps plus the humidity range, and can you show the whole enclosure as it was (if you haven`t emptied it)?
Again, I`m on YOUR side, it`s about having reliable information and offering supportive conditions from day one.. It would be a great shame if you gave up keeping them, it`s not rocket science, it`s mostly common sense...

 

[Bluetongue1]

One possibility is Vitamin D toxicity. Vitamin D supplement should be administered at most twice a week. If using a UVB light, in conjunction with feeding them whole vertebrate animals, chopped or otherwise, it is probably not needed at all. All supplemented vit D is absorbed by the body. Excess vit D produces too much calcium in body serum. This excess calcium is gotten rid of by depositing it in organs such as the kidneys, heart and liver, which then stop working. This can be seen in post mortem. They may still be able to pick it up in a blood rest.

Really sorry you lost your monitor. Young Rosenbergs are an absolute cracker with their hatchling colours.

 

[Tobe404]

Hi, I`ll make this reply fairly short just for the moment, understand I am NOT trying to make you feel worse just offering some reliable advise in order it doesn`t happen again, as far as it may well be husbandry related:
You cannot house even a 4 month old juvenile, medium sized varanid in such a small enclosure other than VERY temporarily, and rehousing is usually very stressful. You say you force handled it (before it`s even acclimated, by force bathing it) why do that?
Varanids absolutely DO benefit from exposure to UVB whether real or decent artificial (although the type you offered was not good enough)
There is NEVER a need to feed lean meats or mixes, and the monitor would have been more than capable of ingesting whole prey from day one ("whole prey" does NOT refer to vertebrate animals, it refers to the complete animal, meaning even a small insect is whole prey..
Varanids cannot metabolise artificial D3, although they can store it, it has ZERO effect on blood serum levels and can be overdosed, so do not offer it. The same is true for Bearded dragons, perhaps many more species/families, it`s a multi million dollar world wide industry, of course "they" will tell us our animals need it...
How were you measuring the ambient and basking surface temps plus the humidity range, and can you show the whole enclosure as it was (if you haven`t emptied it)?
Again, I`m on YOUR side, it`s about having reliable information and offering supportive conditions from day one.. It would be a great shame if you gave up keeping them, it`s not rocket science, it`s mostly common sense...

Well to be fair. I did house a baby Yellow Spotted Monitor (which was bigger and older than the Rosenbergs when I got it) in the exact same enclosure until I ended up making a lizard pit / rainwater tank outside for it when it outgrew the enclosure without issue.

I didn't really handle it until it was consistently eating and only in short periods even when I did.
If it was stressed, I wouldn't have thought it would be out basking and it never really did bolt back to its hides when I was around.
Plus, it did take food from tweezer sized forceps quite readily. Once it got over the move and being hit and miss to start with.

I'm a bit confused as to how the UVB I offered wasn't good enough. From what I've seen the long tube UVB lights put out bugger all (basically none) compared to CFL UVBs. I know CFLs had a bad rap a while ago, but I thought that was all fixed by now.

I was only going off what the breeder was feeding it (chicken breast pieces and crickets covered in Calc/D3 supplement every feed).
I did end up feeding it Woodies more often than not over various types of meat (The Premi-yum mince is basically minced up whole chicken, including bone).

Just to be clear here I'm not throwing any shade at the breeder as he's been breeding Reptiles for years and now specializes in Varanids.

The basking / ambient temps were measured by both an IR heat gun and thermostat.

I will put up a picture of the enclosure when I can bring myself to do it. I haven't touched it since.

One possibility is Vitamin D toxicity. Vitamin D supplement should be administered at most twice a week. If using a UVB light, in conjunction with feeding them whole vertebrate animals, chopped or otherwise, it is probably not needed at all. All supplemented vit D is absorbed by the body. Excess vit D produces too much calcium in body serum. This excess calcium is gotten rid of by depositing it in organs such as the kidneys, heart and liver, which then stop working. This can be seen in post mortem. They may still be able to pick it up in a blood rest.

Really sorry you lost your monitor. Young Rosenbergs are an absolute cracker with their hatchling colours.

That did cross my mind.

I also possibly thought impaction but then it's had whole Pinky Mice / Fuzzy / Pinky Rat Pieces before without issue.

Rare possibility that it was a parasite or virus but considering it was for the most part acting normal.

Eating, Pooing, Shedding. I'd sure like to hope that wasn't the cause.

Below is when I first got the Rosenbergs home. Edit: Also found some pics of not long after I got the Yellow Spotted to Various stages of its life.

I think the Yellow Spotted was 8-10 weeks when I got it. So was a fair bit of an age gap even at the very beginning.

 

[Sdaji]

Some harsh words here!

You can argue about cage size, but I've seen plenty of monitors kept in tiny cages and it certainly doesn't cause them to suddenly die! (No, I'm not advocating small cages, monitors are something I've always used large enclosures for and they definitely enjoy/benefit from as much space as possible, unlike snakes).

I've kept multiple generations of monitors with zero UV, never had a hint of MBD, and I've used various doses of supplements including heavily dosing literally every single feed with calcium, D3 and multivitamin and mineral supplements from hatching to several years of age (this is decades ago now, there was no information available at the time, flame me if you want but I don't much care). I failed to cause any identifiable problems even while experimenting in the dark and using extreme doses, so I'm a bit sceptical that calcium or D3 supplements are particularly dangerous.

I'm not sure what happened to this monitor. I'd perhaps guess that it was off to a bad start with stress and slow feeding and just didn't really recover from it, but without seeing what it looked like over time it's difficult to say. If it was indeed a sudden death and not a long-term poordoer which finally fell over, I don't think any of the issues discussed here are likely to have been relevant. Sudden deaths are usually either from poisoning, injury or congenital issues. Parasites and diseases don't cause sudden deaths in reptiles - their metabolisms are too slow and these issues take a long time to develop and show symptoms along the way. Even in mammals it's very unusual for a disease or parasite to cause sudden death without symptoms over some period of time. Rare exceptions are parasites which suddenly block/interrupt the heart or lungs, but I greatly doubt that would be the case here.

Pictures or a description of what it looked like over the three months you had it would help. Looked fine on arrival. One possibility is that it was a congenital issue which was always going to reveal itself once the animal started to feed and grow. This happens to a small percentage of all animals including humans (often referred to as SIDS etc).

Oh, and as for 'whole prey', there's a big difference between whole vertebrates and whole invertebrates, especially in terms of calcium, but there are several types of whole vertebrates which any monitor can eat from the day they first feed. I used to use a lot of whole fish for my monitors, and a hatchling Heath Monitor can get down mice larger than pinkies.

 

[Tobe404]

Some harsh words here!

You can argue about cage size, but I've seen plenty of monitors kept in tiny cages and it certainly doesn't cause them to suddenly die! (No, I'm not advocating small cages, monitors are something I've always used large enclosures for and they definitely enjoy/benefit from as much space as possible, unlike snakes).

I've kept multiple generations of monitors with zero UV, never had a hint of MBD, and I've used various doses of supplements including heavily dosing literally every single feed with calcium, D3 and multivitamin and mineral supplements from hatching to several years of age (this is decades ago now, there was no information available at the time, flame me if you want but I don't much care). I failed to cause any identifiable problems even while experimenting in the dark and using extreme doses, so I'm a bit sceptical that calcium or D3 supplements are particularly dangerous.

I'm not sure what happened to this monitor. I'd perhaps guess that it was off to a bad start with stress and slow feeding and just didn't really recover from it, but without seeing what it looked like over time it's difficult to say. If it was indeed a sudden death and not a long-term poordoer which finally fell over, I don't think any of the issues discussed here are likely to have been relevant. Sudden deaths are usually either from poisoning, injury or congenital issues. Parasites and diseases don't cause sudden deaths in reptiles - their metabolisms are too slow and these issues take a long time to develop and show symptoms along the way. Even in mammals it's very unusual for a disease or parasite to cause sudden death without symptoms over some period of time. Rare exceptions are parasites which suddenly block/interrupt the heart or lungs, but I greatly doubt that would be the case here.

Pictures or a description of what it looked like over the three months you had it would help. Looked fine on arrival. One possibility is that it was a congenital issue which was always going to reveal itself once the animal started to feed and grow. This happens to a small percentage of all animals including humans (often referred to as SIDS etc).

Oh, and as for 'whole prey', there's a big difference between whole vertebrates and whole invertebrates, especially in terms of calcium, but there are several types of whole vertebrates which any monitor can eat from the day they first feed. I used to use a lot of whole fish for my monitors, and a hatchling Heath Monitor can get down mice larger than pinkies.

Harsh words directly at me or the thread in general?

Not really sure how to describe. As I said it did grow. All be it not much.
it was no longer able to squeeze in the holes/cracks at either end of the log in the enclosure.
Was probably 20cm when I first got it and around a foot in total length when it passed.
To give you an idea of how small it was. I was advised to put cardboard between the glass sliding doors, so it didn't escape through them.

Yes, it was a bit hit and miss to start with (eating in general but also if food was covered in calcium powder / d3).
Had times where I'd offer Roaches and even the meat pieces with the powder on, and it wouldn't touch them.
As soon as I got another without powder on it'd smash them down.
It only ever ate a Roach that was covered in vitamin powder once the whole time I had it (and I tried plenty of times).

If any prey somehow got free from the tweezers and started running away the Monitor would pounce on them quick smart.

But I eventually got it eating pretty consistently (even with the cal / d3 powder on). Seemed to like Roaches the most out of everything.

The first Mouse I ever tried to feed it was a Fuzzy. Got it about 1/2 - 3/4 of the way down and eventually gave up and spat it out.
After that I tried Pinky Mice which it could get down as a whole. Did seem to struggle though.
Ever since then I'd chop up the larger Mice / Rat and it would usually take 2 out of the 3 pieces.

It did have times where it wasn't as active as it probably should have been.
But that was usually the day after a feed and once it had done a poo it would be back to normal again.

It all did seem pretty sudden. Crickets 3 days before it passed. Cut up Pinky Rat 2 days before it passed.
Still very active running/jumping/exploring the enclosure as it normally would.
Not overly active the day before it passed. But I just put that down to it still digesting the Rat pieces,
Checked on it the next day and it was down the cool end and had unfortunately passed.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Am not so tired now and am thinking more clearly, so thought I might take a second look at the “At a total loss…” thread. Given the rapidity of its decline from normal behaviour to dead, this would suggest to me sudden and total failure of a vital organ. This could occur due to a congenital condition, as suggested by Sdaji. For example, if the young monitor hatched with an aneurism in a major blood vessel supplying a vital organ, it could behave entirely normally until that aneurism burst. If the burst blood vessel caused that organ to bleed out relatively quickly, the resulting loss of the organ’s functioning would soon be followed by death. I am only suggesting one possible set of scenarios of how it could happen. While such major congenital defects are relatively rare, they do occasionally happen.

 

[Tobe404]

Am not so tired now and am thinking more clearly, so thought I might take a second look at the “At a total loss…” thread. Given the rapidity of its decline from normal behaviour to dead, this would suggest to me sudden and total failure of a vital organ. This could occur due to a congenital condition, as suggested by Sdaji. For example, if the young monitor hatched with an aneurism in a major blood vessel supplying a vital organ, it could behave entirely normally until that aneurism burst. If the burst blood vessel caused that organ to bleed out relatively quickly, the resulting loss of the organ’s functioning would soon be followed by death. I am only suggesting one possible set of scenarios of how it could happen. While such major congenital defects are relatively rare, they do occasionally happen.

I appreciate everyone's insight. Just really sucks as I've wanted one of these Monitors for so long. Only for this to happen.

Thank you for your condolences.

 

[user 43767]

Some harsh words here!

You can argue about cage size, but I've seen plenty of monitors kept in tiny cages and it certainly doesn't cause them to suddenly die! (No, I'm not advocating small cages, monitors are something I've always used large enclosures for and they definitely enjoy/benefit from as much space as possible, unlike snakes).

I've kept multiple generations of monitors with zero UV, never had a hint of MBD, and I've used various doses of supplements including heavily dosing literally every single feed with calcium, D3 and multivitamin and mineral supplements from hatching to several years of age (this is decades ago now, there was no information available at the time, flame me if you want but I don't much care). I failed to cause any identifiable problems even while experimenting in the dark and using extreme doses, so I'm a bit sceptical that calcium or D3 supplements are particularly dangerous.

I'm not sure what happened to this monitor. I'd perhaps guess that it was off to a bad start with stress and slow feeding and just didn't really recover from it, but without seeing what it looked like over time it's difficult to say. If it was indeed a sudden death and not a long-term poordoer which finally fell over, I don't think any of the issues discussed here are likely to have been relevant. Sudden deaths are usually either from poisoning, injury or congenital issues. Parasites and diseases don't cause sudden deaths in reptiles - their metabolisms are too slow and these issues take a long time to develop and show symptoms along the way. Even in mammals it's very unusual for a disease or parasite to cause sudden death without symptoms over some period of time. Rare exceptions are parasites which suddenly block/interrupt the heart or lungs, but I greatly doubt that would be the case here.

Pictures or a description of what it looked like over the three months you had it would help. Looked fine on arrival. One possibility is that it was a congenital issue which was always going to reveal itself once the animal started to feed and grow. This happens to a small percentage of all animals including humans (often referred to as SIDS etc).

Oh, and as for 'whole prey', there's a big difference between whole vertebrates and whole invertebrates, especially in terms of calcium, but there are several types of whole vertebrates which any monitor can eat from the day they first feed. I used to use a lot of whole fish for my monitors, and a hatchling Heath Monitor can get down mice larger than pinkies.

We`ve been through the supplementary D3 topic already, you are totally incorrect in suggesting it benefits them in any way? Instead of offering your very OUTDATED advise to people, do some RESEARCH.
D3 supplementation has ZERO effect on blood serum levels, it can be stored, but not metabolised.

One possibility is Vitamin D toxicity. Vitamin D supplement should be administered at most twice a week. If using a UVB light, in conjunction with feeding them whole vertebrate animals, chopped or otherwise, it is probably not needed at all. All supplemented vit D is absorbed by the body. Excess vit D produces too much calcium in body serum. This excess calcium is gotten rid of by depositing it in organs such as the kidneys, heart and liver, which then stop working. This can be seen in post mortem. They may still be able to pick it up in a blood rest.

Really sorry you lost your monitor. Young Rosenbergs are an absolute cracker with their hatchling colours.

Hi, please do some research before offering advise; supplementary D3 has ZERO effect on blood serum levels, it cannot be metabolised by varanids (plus at least one other species in a separate family) it should NOT be offered, even infrequently..

Well to be fair. I did house a baby Yellow Spotted Monitor (which was bigger and older than the Rosenbergs when I got it) in the exact same enclosure until I ended up making a lizard pit / rainwater tank outside for it when it outgrew the enclosure without issue.

I didn't really handle it until it was consistently eating and only in short periods even when I did.
If it was stressed, I wouldn't have thought it would be out basking and it never really did bolt back to its hides when I was around.
Plus, it did take food from tweezer sized forceps quite readily. Once it got over the move and being hit and miss to start with.

I'm a bit confused as to how the UVB I offered wasn't good enough. From what I've seen the long tube UVB lights put out bugger all (basically none) compared to CFL UVBs. I know CFLs had a bad rap a while ago, but I thought that was all fixed by now.

I was only going off what the breeder was feeding it (chicken breast pieces and crickets covered in Calc/D3 supplement every feed).
I did end up feeding it Woodies more often than not over various types of meat (The Premi-yum mince is basically minced up whole chicken, including bone).

Just to be clear here I'm not throwing any shade at the breeder as he's been breeding Reptiles for years and now specializes in Varanids.

The basking / ambient temps were measured by both an IR heat gun and thermostat.

I will put up a picture of the enclosure when I can bring myself to do it. I haven't touched it since.



That did cross my mind.

I also possibly thought impaction but then it's had whole Pinky Mice / Fuzzy / Pinky Rat Pieces before without issue.

Rare possibility that it was a parasite or virus but considering it was for the most part acting normal.

Eating, Pooing, Shedding. I'd sure like to hope that wasn't the cause.

Below is when I first got the Rosenbergs home. Edit: Also found some pics of not long after I got the Yellow Spotted to Various stages of its life.

I think the Yellow Spotted was 8-10 weeks when I got it. So was a fair bit of an age gap even at the very beginning.

Just because someone has compatible monitors that breed with each other does not necessarily make that person an expert on them, and in your case it`s clear he/she was not that experienced or knowledgeable considering the food that they offered (chicken breast fillets supplemented with D3 at every meal)..
Unless you have an autopsy done, none of us can say what happened...
The reason I said the cfl wasn`t that good is because they emit the UVB over such a small area (I know the animal wasn`t vey big) and a T5 HO (high output) UVB tube most definitely is effective. The closest thing we have currently to natural sunlight are the reptile specific metal halides, not cheap, but very effective.
Here`s a link, there have been a number of studies done regarding the effectiveness of supplementary D3, they all agree it is of no benefit whatsoever, ignore what other members may say to the contrary..
http://www.google.co.uk/url?esrc=s&...AQFnoECAsQAg&usg=AOvVaw2i82R-lAeUWsJuZNtWNiaw
Here is another, this time Bearded dragons (very possibly many other agamids, too)…
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...495910000540&usg=AOvVaw0YVmN8Ip9peo14qW5e3x67

 

[Sdaji]

We`ve been through the supplementary D3 topic already, you are totally incorrect in suggesting it benefits them in any way? Instead of offering your very OUTDATED advise to people, do some RESEARCH.
D3 supplementation has ZERO effect on blood serum levels, it can be stored, but not metabolised.




Hi, please do some research before offering advise; supplementary D3 has ZERO effect on blood serum levels, it cannot be metabolised by varanids (plus at least one other species in a separate family) it should NOT be offered, even infrequently..



Just because someone has compatible monitors that breed with each other does not necessarily make that person an expert on them, and in your case it`s clear he/she was not that experienced or knowledgeable considering the food that they offered (chicken breast fillets supplemented with D3 at every meal)..
Unless you have an autopsy done, none of us can say what happened...
The reason I said the cfl wasn`t that good is because they emit the UVB over such a small area (I know the animal wasn`t vey big) and a T5 HO (high output) UVB tube most definitely is effective. The closest thing we have currently to natural sunlight are the reptile specific metal halides, not cheap, but very effective.
Here`s a link, there have been a number of studies done regarding the effectiveness of supplementary D3, they all agree it is of no benefit whatsoever, ignore what other members may say to the contrary..
http://www.google.co.uk/url?esrc=s&...AQFnoECAsQAg&usg=AOvVaw2i82R-lAeUWsJuZNtWNiaw
Here is another, this time Bearded dragons (very possibly many other agamids, too)…
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...495910000540&usg=AOvVaw0YVmN8Ip9peo14qW5e3x67

You can get angry at me as many times as you like, but I have literally bred and raised multiple consecutive generations of monitors with zero UV and have never had the slightest hint of MDB or any related issues. I have raised them from hatchlings right out of the egg to old adults with huge amounts of D3 supplements and have never had a single problem with it.

That being the case, anything I read is not going to change the actual real world experience I have had.

I am not making claims about what you will see if you analyse their blood serum, I am not making some of the claims you say I am. I am not even saying that D3 is beneficial, I haven't done anything which proves that, I haven't made that claim. I have simply demonstrated that it isn't necessarily harmful and what I've seen extremely strongly suggests that it's unlikely to ever be at all harmful. If I can get monitors and give them a heavy dose of D3 at literally every feed of their life and they live to old adults and throughout their lives they produce good numbers of offspring which are perfectly healthy, I'm clearly going to be difficult to convince that D3 is a harmful substance, regardless of what someone says they saw when they analysed blood chemistry.

I didn't ever say anyone who breeds monitors is automatically an expert. You sure love to build strawmen then attack them. I certainly never suggested that breast fillets are good feed for monitors, I have never and probably would never use that even as a supplement. Again, strawman, but particularly irrelevant.

Not sure why you're posting links about agamids.

Please try to be more productive, more relevant, and less angry. Nonsense on the forum like this makes some people not post at all, it certainly makes me post less. Have a great day all the same.

 

[user 43767]

You can get angry at me as many times as you like, but I have literally bred and raised multiple consecutive generations of monitors with zero UV and have never had the slightest hint of MDB or any related issues. I have raised them from hatchlings right out of the egg to old adults with huge amounts of D3 supplements and have never had a single problem with it.

That being the case, anything I read is not going to change the actual real world experience I have had.

I am not making claims about what you will see if you analyse their blood serum, I am not making some of the claims you say I am. I am not even saying that D3 is beneficial, I haven't done anything which proves that, I haven't made that claim. I have simply demonstrated that it isn't necessarily harmful and what I've seen extremely strongly suggests that it's unlikely to ever be at all harmful. If I can get monitors and give them a heavy dose of D3 at literally every feed of their life and they live to old adults and throughout their lives they produce good numbers of offspring which are perfectly healthy, I'm clearly going to be difficult to convince that D3 is a harmful substance, regardless of what someone says they saw when they analysed blood chemistry.

I didn't ever say anyone who breeds monitors is automatically an expert. You sure love to build strawmen then attack them. I certainly never suggested that breast fillets are good feed for monitors, I have never and probably would never use that even as a supplement. Again, strawman, but particularly irrelevant.

Not sure why you're posting links about agamids.

Please try to be more productive, more relevant, and less angry. Nonsense on the forum like this makes some people not post at all, it certainly makes me post less. Have a great day all the same.

You are a second rate Frank Retes with your ridiculous page long responses,...
You claim to have bred more monitors than "all the top breeders put together" without ever showing a single video or photo?
Some of your husbandry methods are at least 20 YEARS out of date.
The results of the D3 studies are reliable, I showed the Bearded dragon results in order to show that D3 supplementation has ZERO effect on blood serum levels in another species/family (no matter how much is offered) there are also studies showing the results of over supplementation.
Because beginners are likely to follow your outdated and unproven claims, I felt I needed to criticised them (you)...
I haven`t once suggested you claimed anyone who breeds varanids is an expert, please read along the lines instead of between them, and PLEASE offer some proof of your "successes ".
Good you`re having a great day, we all need those, and neither am I angry, just frustrated that individuals like yourself are so prolific on these websites..

 

[Sdaji]

You are a second rate Frank Retes with your ridiculous page long responses,...
You claim to have bred more monitors than "all the top breeders put together" without ever showing a single video or photo?
Some of your husbandry methods are at least 20 YEARS out of date.
The results of the D3 studies are reliable, I showed the Bearded dragon results in order to show that D3 supplementation has ZERO effect on blood serum levels in another species/family (no matter how much is offered) there are also studies showing the results of over supplementation.
Because beginners are likely to follow your outdated and unproven claims, I felt I needed to criticised them (you)...
I haven`t once suggested you claimed anyone who breeds varanids is an expert, please read along the lines instead of between them, and PLEASE offer some proof of your "successes ".
Good you`re having a great day, we all need those, and neither am I angry, just frustrated that individuals like yourself are so prolific on these websites..

Maybe you can write responses for your own strawman. I'm not really keen to bother.

 

[Tobe404]

We`ve been through the supplementary D3 topic already, you are totally incorrect in suggesting it benefits them in any way? Instead of offering your very OUTDATED advise to people, do some RESEARCH.
D3 supplementation has ZERO effect on blood serum levels, it can be stored, but not metabolised.




Hi, please do some research before offering advise; supplementary D3 has ZERO effect on blood serum levels, it cannot be metabolised by varanids (plus at least one other species in a separate family) it should NOT be offered, even infrequently..



Just because someone has compatible monitors that breed with each other does not necessarily make that person an expert on them, and in your case it`s clear he/she was not that experienced or knowledgeable considering the food that they offered (chicken breast fillets supplemented with D3 at every meal)..
Unless you have an autopsy done, none of us can say what happened...
The reason I said the cfl wasn`t that good is because they emit the UVB over such a small area (I know the animal wasn`t vey big) and a T5 HO (high output) UVB tube most definitely is effective. The closest thing we have currently to natural sunlight are the reptile specific metal halides, not cheap, but very effective.
Here`s a link, there have been a number of studies done regarding the effectiveness of supplementary D3, they all agree it is of no benefit whatsoever, ignore what other members may say to the contrary..
http://www.google.co.uk/url?esrc=s&...AQFnoECAsQAg&usg=AOvVaw2i82R-lAeUWsJuZNtWNiaw
Here is another, this time Bearded dragons (very possibly many other agamids, too)…
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...495910000540&usg=AOvVaw0YVmN8Ip9peo14qW5e3x67

I'll just leave this here.



According to that video CFLs are more effective and at wider ranges (both height and width) than even high output T5/8 Tubes.

Yes, i know it's only one video. But the proof is right there. Before I found it, I too thought T5/8 Tubes were more effective than CFLs.

Turns out we were both wrong.

Only bulb that seems to be more effective than any other for UVB output is MVBs.
Rather expensive. Prone to blow. Rare that you find any under 125 Watts.
Honestly no idea how well they actually output pure heat either.

 

[kankryb]

Can anyone tell me where I can find them papers that show that monitors can't take vitamin D3?

 

[dragonlover1]

I don't pretend to know more than yo guy

I'll just leave this here.



According to that video CFLs are more effective and at wider ranges (both height and width) than even high output T5/8 Tubes.

Yes, i know it's only one video. But the proof is right there. Before I found it, I too thought T5/8 Tubes were more effective than CFLs.

Turns out we were both wrong.

Only bulb that seems to be more effective than any other for UVB output is MVBs.
Rather expensive. Prone to blow. Rare that you find any under 125 Watts.
Honestly no idea how well they actually output pure heat either.

I don't pretend to know more than you guys. I keep several species of dragon, plus a couple species of Antaresia, plus a couple of species of Monitor. So I have different setups, different lighting etc. some have MVB plus a standard flouro for extra light, some have Philips spot lights plus T8 10UV tubes, a couple have T5 10UV plus Philips spot lamps. I do not give D3 anymore because they get plenty of UV. 20 years of keeping/breeding reptiles and I haven't had any problems. I know that doesn't make me an expert,but all my babies are healthy critters

 

[Tobe404]

I don't pretend to know more than yo guy

I don't pretend to know more than you guys. I keep several species of dragon, plus a couple species of Antaresia, plus a couple of species of Monitor. So I have different setups, different lighting etc. some have MVB plus a standard flouro for extra light, some have Philips spot lights plus T8 10UV tubes, a couple have T5 10UV plus Philips spot lamps. I do not give D3 anymore because they get plenty of UV. 20 years of keeping/breeding reptiles and I haven't had any problems. I know that doesn't make me an expert,but all my babies are healthy critters

I have no doubt you know more than me and I respect your opinion.

Just so you know. The video wasn't directed at you.

 

[user 43767]

I'll just leave this here.



According to that video CFLs are more effective and at wider ranges (both height and width) than even high output T5/8 Tubes.

Yes, i know it's only one video. But the proof is right there. Before I found it, I too thought T5/8 Tubes were more effective than CFLs.

Turns out we were both wrong.

Only bulb that seems to be more effective than any other for UVB output is MVBs.
Rather expensive. Prone to blow. Rare that you find any under 125 Watts.
Honestly no idea how well they actually output pure heat either.

Hi, the video is confusing because the author is making comparisons based on not knowing what keepers are actually doing: he claims large, really well built enclosures have the UVB tubes set 4ft above the monitor yet fails to show an example of that, although I agree the best way to check how much your animal receives is via a Solar meter...
The MVB are NOT the most effective in terms of UVB output, reptile specific metal halides are, as I mentioned..
In no way am I suggesting UVB, whether too much or too little was responsible for your monitor`s death, I think it`s quite possible there was a health problem when you acquired it, as the diet the seller uses can cause very serious health problems in a short space of time, here`s an example, no doubt this is FAR more common than we hear about...

https://www.google.co.uk/url?esrc=s...YQFnoECAQQAg&usg=AOvVaw251zZwhZg-ll0bpmxwJyBk

I'll just leave this here.



According to that video CFLs are more effective and at wider ranges (both height and width) than even high output T5/8 Tubes.

Yes, i know it's only one video. But the proof is right there. Before I found it, I too thought T5/8 Tubes were more effective than CFLs.

Turns out we were both wrong.

Only bulb that seems to be more effective than any other for UVB output is MVBs.
Rather expensive. Prone to blow. Rare that you find any under 125 Watts.
Honestly no idea how well they actually output pure heat either.

Hi, the video isn`t playing for me can you link it again?
MVB`s are NOT as effective as reptile specific metal halide bulbs , neither are they prone to failing in my personal experience?
They ARE available in wattages lower than 125.
I think it`s possible your monitor had a health problem before you acquired it, that`s mainly based on the diet you say the "breeder" uses. Please watch this link, it is very upsetting but I think it happens far more frequently than we get to hear of.. Take note of how young the animal was..
https://www.google.co.uk/url?esrc=s...QtwJ6BAgKEAE&usg=AOvVaw3DDOHxv_cfsVp_07yRR774

Can anyone tell me where I can find them papers that show that monitors can't take vitamin D3?

Hi, I`ve put links up in my response to Sdaji above your reply...

 

[Tobe404]

Hi, the video isn`t playing for me can you link it again?
MVB`s are NOT as effective as reptile specific metal halide bulbs , neither are they prone to failing in my personal experience?
They ARE available in wattages lower than 125.
I think it`s possible your monitor had a health problem before you acquired it, that`s mainly based on the diet you say the "breeder" uses. Please watch this link, it is very upsetting but I think it happens far more frequently than we get to hear of.. Take note of how young the animal was..
https://www.google.co.uk/url?esrc=s...QtwJ6BAgKEAE&usg=AOvVaw3DDOHxv_cfsVp_07yRR774

Hope it works this time.

My point with the video is that while CFLs may not be the best form of UVB they certainly are not the worst.

I reckon I've seen that Lace Monitor and the story of it somewhere before. Very sad indeed.
Surprised it even survived to be honest.

I still don't reckon mine had MBD (but possibly some other condition) though.
Up until it's passing it was acting completely normal and didn't look deformed or anything.
As far as I know the other babies are still doing well.

On some further digging I did find some MVBs under 125 watts (even locally here in Australia). So, I apologise for being wrong about that.

As for the Reptile Specific MHBs. Struggling to find any locally in Australia.

 

[TwistedBambi]

Well to be fair. I did house a baby Yellow Spotted Monitor (which was bigger and older than the Rosenbergs when I got it) in the exact same enclosure until I ended up making a lizard pit / rainwater tank outside for it when it outgrew the enclosure without issue.

I didn't really handle it until it was consistently eating and only in short periods even when I did.
If it was stressed, I wouldn't have thought it would be out basking and it never really did bolt back to its hides when I was around.
Plus, it did take food from tweezer sized forceps quite readily. Once it got over the move and being hit and miss to start with.

I'm a bit confused as to how the UVB I offered wasn't good enough. From what I've seen the long tube UVB lights put out bugger all (basically none) compared to CFL UVBs. I know CFLs had a bad rap a while ago, but I thought that was all fixed by now.

I was only going off what the breeder was feeding it (chicken breast pieces and crickets covered in Calc/D3 supplement every feed).
I did end up feeding it Woodies more often than not over various types of meat (The Premi-yum mince is basically minced up whole chicken, including bone).

Just to be clear here I'm not throwing any shade at the breeder as he's been breeding Reptiles for years and now specializes in Varanids.

The basking / ambient temps were measured by both an IR heat gun and thermostat.

I will put up a picture of the enclosure when I can bring myself to do it. I haven't touched it since.



That did cross my mind.

I also possibly thought impaction but then it's had whole Pinky Mice / Fuzzy / Pinky Rat Pieces before without issue.

Rare possibility that it was a parasite or virus but considering it was for the most part acting normal.

Eating, Pooing, Shedding. I'd sure like to hope that wasn't the cause.

Below is when I first got the Rosenbergs home. Edit: Also found some pics of not long after I got the Yellow Spotted to Various stages of its life.

I think the Yellow Spotted was 8-10 weeks when I got it. So was a fair bit of an age gap even at the very beginning.

They're so beautiful sorry to hear the lil guy didn't make it

 

[user 43767]

I wanted to keep the thread running because although we may never know why the monitor died long before it`s time, we can still discuss why it`s so important to provide them with "more" rather than "less" from day one, and in your case there are improvements to be made in terms of the enclosure: there was not nearly enough "furniture" above ground that the animal could have made good use of (mental and physical exercise).
You mentioned spraying the enclosure, and sometimes bathing the monitor (to help with shedding?) yet there are 2 very large vents, which meant you would lose heat and much humidity. It`s perfectly acceptable to have small vents, but they need to be strategically placed.
Supplementation is by all accounts pure guesswork, some (as with D3) is of no benefit, so it`s best to feed the feeders very well instead (obviously if someone has a female some added calcium is recommended at times (or an animal in ill health that requires extra).
You mentioned relatively poor growth, I would have expected anything between 5 to 7cm per month at that stage if fully supported and healthy.