Issue with feeding inside enclosure - feeding mode for a few days

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KraftAwakened

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My Morelia spilota harrisoni is about 2 yo and I'm used to feeding him outside of the enclosure (frozen rats). Recently I wanted to switch to doing it inside the enclosure but he started to behave in a strange way:
- 1st time feeding inside the enclosure went without any issues
- 2nd time feeding, a few days later I noticed he was behaving in an unusual way. But he was in his sleeping position but his head was moving around and tracking me so I walked to the enclosure to see what was going on. When I touched the mesh wall next to him he tried to bite me. The next days went without any issue.
- 3rd time feeding, for the next 7-8 days he was awake during the day sitting in the middle of the terrarium in the attack pattern. Each time I was next to the terrarium he would come close to the wall and try to bite me hitting the glass wall of the enclosure.

I want to move to feed him inside the enclosure as moving him around after feeding is becoming difficult. Normally after feeding in his 2nd enclosure he would exit his feeding mode after like 20 minutes but right now after 4 hours, he would still try to eat my hand bitting two times and wrapping around it. But on the other hand, I'm afraid of trying to feed him inside as he becomes impossible to handle after.

Regarding the snake:
He is 480g and 125 cm male with very mellow behavior, you can touch his head or anything and he will not mind. I have had him for around 18 months. He is on the smaller side but healthy, his only issue is being mute. He cannot make any noise outside of gasping like 80yo guy but I checked it with two vets and they said 'it is not a bug it's a feature.
 
That's very little for a two year old Carpet. If you only fed me a fraction as much as I wanted, I'd be playing Oliver Twist for a while after each meal too.
He is 480g, so how much would be fine? The breeder told me to keep around 10% when he is this old.
 
They're not going to grow quickly on 10% of their body weight.

Determining the correct size of a feed by % of snake body weight is a dubious rule of thumb; consider the fact that it will cause an overeweight snake to be fed more, and an emaciated snake will not get enough. If you are too skinny you need to eat more, not less, and if you are overweight you need to eat less, not more.

By two years of age I am personally generally feeding Carpets adult rats, around 200-250g, though less often than every two weeks. I generally go for around 20-30% of snake weight per feed for growing snakes (I don't measure it by percentage of snake weight and as described above I would be using different percentages if the snake was under or overweight/size, but all going normally, that's about the percentage I'm using). For beginners it would usually be best to go slightly smaller than what I use because some snakes won't be well-suited to a larger meal and beginners won't be able to recognise which snake, especially if they're trying to use rules like % of bodyweight.

The important thing is how much a snake gets over a period of months. As long as you're not being ridiculous, the size of each meal doesn't really matter (feeds twice as large half as often over a six month period will give a similar result, for example).

10% of the snake's body size is a small meal for a Carpet of any type or age. It's not 'extreme', but it's small enough that the digestive system is working noticeably less efficiently. Carpet Pythons, like a lot of snakes, have digestive systems which usually sit relatively dormant, and have to swing into action to digest a meal. This switching on and firing up of the digestive system takes a certain amount of energy whether it's a small meal or a large meal (if it's a very small meal it will take more energy to digest it than is gained from the meal). If you're only giving the snake a small meal and it has its digestive system working away rather than dormant, it will be eager to put more feed into its stomach to give the digestive system more to do while it is active.

You can run the snake less efficiently if you want to and it won't really harm the snake, and 480g at two years of age isn't a bad size (I like to grow them quickly so would have them larger, but that's not everyone's cup of tea which is fine), but the snake instinctively wants its digestive system to work more efficiently so it will be eager to feed while in the early digestive stages of each meal. This isn't exactly 'cruel' - a healthy Carpet Python should want to eat more than it does get to eat. As with most animals including ourselves, if they eat as much as they feel like they will get fat.
 
They're not going to grow quickly on 10% of their body weight.

Determining the correct size of a feed by % of snake body weight is a dubious rule of thumb; consider the fact that it will cause an overeweight snake to be fed more, and an emaciated snake will not get enough. If you are too skinny you need to eat more, not less, and if you are overweight you need to eat less, not more.

By two years of age I am personally generally feeding Carpets adult rats, around 200-250g, though less often than every two weeks. I generally go for around 20-30% of snake weight per feed for growing snakes (I don't measure it by percentage of snake weight and as described above I would be using different percentages if the snake was under or overweight/size, but all going normally, that's about the percentage I'm using). For beginners it would usually be best to go slightly smaller than what I use because some snakes won't be well-suited to a larger meal and beginners won't be able to recognise which snake, especially if they're trying to use rules like % of bodyweight.

The important thing is how much a snake gets over a period of months. As long as you're not being ridiculous, the size of each meal doesn't really matter (feeds twice as large half as often over a six month period will give a similar result, for example).

10% of the snake's body size is a small meal for a Carpet of any type or age. It's not 'extreme', but it's small enough that the digestive system is working noticeably less efficiently. Carpet Pythons, like a lot of snakes, have digestive systems which usually sit relatively dormant, and have to swing into action to digest a meal. This switching on and firing up of the digestive system takes a certain amount of energy whether it's a small meal or a large meal (if it's a very small meal it will take more energy to digest it than is gained from the meal). If you're only giving the snake a small meal and it has its digestive system working away rather than dormant, it will be eager to put more feed into its stomach to give the digestive system more to do while it is active.

You can run the snake less efficiently if you want to and it won't really harm the snake, and 480g at two years of age isn't a bad size (I like to grow them quickly so would have them larger, but that's not everyone's cup of tea which is fine), but the snake instinctively wants its digestive system to work more efficiently so it will be eager to feed while in the early digestive stages of each meal. This isn't exactly 'cruel' - a healthy Carpet Python should want to eat more than it does get to eat. As with most animals including ourselves, if they eat as much as they feel like they will get fat.
Thank you for the explanation and your help, it is very informative.
  • I will try to visit with the local vet later to make sure he is not obese after I switch to the new feeding plan. Just to make sure I understand if I go for the 20-30% how often should I feed him? I mean what's the total "rat grams" I should provide per month? On the other hand, I don't mind feeding him once a month.
  • Just to make sure, he can handle adult rats without any issues?
  • Am I correct in understanding that when I feed him meals in his enclosure, because of the small size he is still giving me a feeding response for several days? As I have mentioned he became like this after 3rd feeding inside his enclosure. My interpretation was he had several meals inside the enclosure so decided it's a constant thing and he needs to be alert at all times.
Again thank you for your help.
 
A month is too short a timeframe for looking at total feed. Think longer term.

If your snake is underweight or undersize, feed more. If overweight, feed less. Snakes have slow metabolisms, so losing weight takes longer for them unless they are growing.

I don't measure rats by words. I've seen rats sold as 'adult rats' between about 120g and 450g. I measure rat size in grams.

The whole feeding in the enclosure vs outside the enclosure thing is a long story I don't usually get into. The short version is that I would never bother feeding outside the enclosure, the long story has a lot of trivial details which take a long time to explain and it has been discussed more times than I could ever count, sometimes in the whole nasty argument type style. Generally, it makes no difference and you're wasting your time. For many snakes the disturbance of moving them makes them less keen to feed. For some snakes you'll train them that the enclosure is the place to eat so they're expect a feed when your hand goes into the enclosure, so you may need a hook to get them out, but generally for those snakes feeding them outside the enclosure makes them expect a feed outside the enclosure so they're more likely to bite during handling. There are plenty of ways to train snakes, most people will never understand how to do it and in the majority of cases feeding out of the enclosure makes a snake a worse handler.

To explain it fully would take several pages and it's a bit beyond what I have time for.
 
A month is too short a timeframe for looking at total feed. Think longer term.

If your snake is underweight or undersize, feed more. If overweight, feed less. Snakes have slow metabolisms, so losing weight takes longer for them unless they are growing.

I don't measure rats by words. I've seen rats sold as 'adult rats' between about 120g and 450g. I measure rat size in grams.

The whole feeding in the enclosure vs outside the enclosure thing is a long story I don't usually get into. The short version is that I would never bother feeding outside the enclosure, the long story has a lot of trivial details which take a long time to explain and it has been discussed more times than I could ever count, sometimes in the whole nasty argument type style. Generally, it makes no difference and you're wasting your time. For many snakes the disturbance of moving them makes them less keen to feed. For some snakes you'll train them that the enclosure is the place to eat so they're expect a feed when your hand goes into the enclosure, so you may need a hook to get them out, but generally for those snakes feeding them outside the enclosure makes them expect a feed outside the enclosure so they're more likely to bite during handling. There are plenty of ways to train snakes, most people will never understand how to do it and in the majority of cases feeding out of the enclosure makes a snake a worse handler.

To explain it fully would take several pages and it's a bit beyond what I have time for.
in much less words I agree. Feed in the enclosure
 
I'm sorry but can I get a straight answer about how much should I feed him? "A month is too short a timeframe for looking at total feed. Think longer term." this is not very informative.
 
By two years of age I am personally generally feeding Carpets adult rats, around 200-250g, though less often than every two weeks. I generally go for around 20-30% of snake weight per feed for growing snakes (I don't measure it by percentage of snake weight and as described above I would be using different percentages if the snake was under or overweight/size, but all going normally, that's about the percentage I'm using). For beginners it would usually be best to go slightly smaller than what I use because some snakes won't be well-suited to a larger meal and beginners won't be able to recognise which snake, especially if they're trying to use rules like % of bodyweight.
480g snake, 20% is a 96g rat, 30% is 144g rat. Your choice but that's what he's recommended.
 
If your snake is underweight or undersize, feed more. If overweight, feed less. Snakes have slow metabolisms, so losing weight takes longer for them unless they are growing.
Can't see your snake to make that call. Fatness where goes to tail, whether has 'dimple' along spine meaning fat on either side of spine or not etc.
 
I'm sorry but can I get a straight answer about how much should I feed him? "A month is too short a timeframe for looking at total feed. Think longer term." this is not very informative.
No.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. It is stupid and irresponsible to give an exact amount of feed to give to a snake (or human or any other animal). They aren't one litre bottles which need an exactly correct amount to fill them up. They are individuals, they grow at different rates, they have different metabolic rates. If you measure by % of the snake's weight and use a fixed amount of time between feeds, you will end up with an obese or emaciated snake. The same applies to any other animal. Let's say I measured by food intake by my current weight. I am 6'4" and weight about 93kg. Let's say that I should eat 2,600 calories per day given my activity level, etc etc. If I get that amount wrong in either direction, over time I am going to spiral out of control. If I go slightly too much, I am going to start getting fatter/heavier. After a while, as I get fatter and fatter, I am going to be eating more and more, because I weigh more, so the problem will become worse and worse. If I eat too little I will lose weight, and the more I lose, the less food I will eat, because I'm measuring my food based on my weight, so the problem will become worse and worse.

This same concept applies to any animal.

So, again, I say you need to look at giving the correct amount of feed to the snake. It doesn't matter how often you feed (within reason). It doesn't matter whether you feed a heap for a month and then nothing for a few months or nothing for a few months then a heap for a month, or space it out so you're feeding once, twice, three or four times per month. The total amount of feed is the important thing.

As for determining how much, watch the snake. If it is fat, feed less. If it is underconditioned/skinny, feed more. While the snake is growing this is pretty easy, because you basically just alter how quickly it grows as long as you're not getting things severely wrong (which is common). If you err on the slightly heavy feeding side, the snake just grows quickly at first, which is fine, but once it approaches adult size, it becomes obese. At the other extreme, they grow slowly and after about 2-3 years are problematically undersized eventually become emaciated because the body tries to put on size and can not maintain condition.

Over the decades I have seen countless examples of both of these scenarios, but it became much more common once these 'rules of thumb' like % of bodyweight feeds became popular.

So, learn to recognise what a healthy bodyweight for a snake looks like. Do not do on things like 'the ridge down the back' (my goodness, I have seen some morbidly obese snakes as a result of that nonsense, with owners swearing their snake is not overweight because they can/can't see that ridge/dimple/line) - sorry Vixen, but this is really dangerous advice. Like people, overweight snakes can have different shapes, and different people interpret them differently. Not all fat people get cellulite or stretch marks or certain waist:hip ratios etc etc, and just using these measures can be extremely misleading. Using raw measurements with no interpretation is like using BMI in humans - it'll usually give you some idea but with the same BMI people can be terribly underweight or obese. If you can't recognise it yourself just show the snake to people who know what they're looking at and get their advice (pictures on a forum are usually fine).

Big meals are fine, small meals are fine, frequency is not important. The important thing is to feed more if the snake is underweight or size, less if it's overweight, and steady as she goes if the snake is a healthy weight. I deliberately choose a non regular feeding schedule. If a snake is underweight I will feed more over the next 12 months. If it's overweight I will feed very little (or even nothing) over the following 12 months. I usually don't let them get particularly under or overweight.

I hope that makes sense.
 
Apologies, was trying to explain as you said many different ways, different snakes, thus the etc. All info needed was there, trying to point in right direction, should have used more words.
 
My Morelia spilota harrisoni is about 2 yo and I'm used to feeding him outside of the enclosure (frozen rats). Recently I wanted to switch to doing it inside the enclosure but he started to behave in a strange way:
- 1st time feeding inside the enclosure went without any issues
- 2nd time feeding, a few days later I noticed he was behaving in an unusual way. But he was in his sleeping position but his head was moving around and tracking me so I walked to the enclosure to see what was going on. When I touched the mesh wall next to him he tried to bite me. The next days went without any issue.
- 3rd time feeding, for the next 7-8 days he was awake during the day sitting in the middle of the terrarium in the attack pattern. Each time I was next to the terrarium he would come close to the wall and try to bite me hitting the glass wall of the enclosure.

I want to move to feed him inside the enclosure as moving him around after feeding is becoming difficult. Normally after feeding in his 2nd enclosure he would exit his feeding mode after like 20 minutes but right now after 4 hours, he would still try to eat my hand bitting two times and wrapping around it. But on the other hand, I'm afraid of trying to feed him inside as he becomes impossible to handle after.

Regarding the snake:
He is 480g and 125 cm male with very mellow behavior, you can touch his head or anything and he will not mind. I have had him for around 18 months. He is on the smaller side but healthy, his only issue is being mute. He cannot make any noise outside of gasping like 80yo guy but I checked it with two vets and they said 'it is not a bug it's a feature.

Mate your snake is not acting in a strange way and what's happening has got nothing to do with feeding it inside or outside the enclosure...The simple answer is...Your snake is hungry...as evident by your description of it, "sitting in the middle of the terrarium in the attack pattern" and, "Each time I was next to the terrarium he would come close to the wall and try to bite me hitting the glass wall of the enclosure."

So up the food size. A 1.25 Carpet is quite capable of eating an adult rat between 160 - 250 grams. Carpet pythons can stretch their mouth and body to accommodate food items up to 6 times the diameter of their body and a rat of the above size would pose no problem for your snake. Unless it is grossly thin I'd suggest feeding it a rat this size once a month.

I really don't know where this rubbish about feeding snake food items estimated to be a certain percentage of their body weight ever came from. Ditto in regard to feeding snakes every 7 to 10 days. Despite being captive animals they still possess very strong natural survival instinct. So as it is often a case of feast or famine in the wild the same should apply to feeding captive snakes. Feeds should be irregular and of varying suitable sizes.

It should be remembered that a snake's metabolism increases dramatically in an effort to digest a food item whereby the main organs swell to around 3 times their normal size. Once the food item has been digested their organs slowly return to normal and need to be rested for a period of time before consuming the next item and as Sadji has pointed out out the strain on it's internal organs when fed small items close together can outweigh any benefit due the cost in energy for the snake to digest each meal.

Different species of snake require food according to how active they are and the amount of time it takes their metabolism to digest each item. Snakes that are very active such as large elapids require a regular intake of food compared to snakes like pythons who are rather inactive by comparison.

Despite being classed as generally nocturnal, carpet pythons can be active during the day as well. Their senses are activated 24/7 and as such, (like most if not all snakes), they are opportunistic feeders and even when resting or asleep pythons are alerted to prospective food items via these senses and respond accordingly. So given this you can feed it either during the day or night whether they are active or inactive.

You can feed inside or outside the enclosure, it's your own personal choice but as Sadji has indicated their are pros and cons with both methods. I believe you'll find that most experienced keepers prefer to feed in the enclosure as a measure not to risk regurgitation following a feed by moving it from one enclosure to another.


Thank you for the explanation and your help, it is very informative.
  • I will try to visit with the local vet later to make sure he is not obese after I switch to the new feeding plan. Just to make sure I understand if I go for the 20-30% how often should I feed him? I mean what's the total "rat grams" I should provide per month? On the other hand, I don't mind feeding him once a month.
  • Just to make sure, he can handle adult rats without any issues?
  • Am I correct in understanding that when I feed him meals in his enclosure, because of the small size he is still giving me a feeding response for several days? As I have mentioned he became like this after 3rd feeding inside his enclosure. My interpretation was he had several meals inside the enclosure so decided it's a constant thing and he needs to be alert at all times.
Again thank you for your help.

OK:

As long as your snake appears healthy, is feeding and defecating normally there is no need for an expensive vet visit.

Forget about the % per body weight of the snake and up the food size. As mentioned above a snake that size can take a large rat no problems.

Because you are only giving him small feeds he is hungry and as such looking for a further meal. It doesn't matter if he is inside or outside his enclosure if he's hungry, because he will be looking for more food regardless. So if he is looking for more food, give him another rat. He could eat 3 of those 50-70 grm rats in one sitting.
Alternatively, offer it a large rat and if it takes it offer it another and see how it responds. It it takes the extra one just leave it be and give it a month to digest and reset it's organs and then offer it a large rat once a month.

Again as mentioned above it's your choice in regard to feeding inside or outside the enclosure as both have pros and cons regarding benefits v non-benefits.

Cheers,

George
 
I know this is somewhat late but personal circumstances have prevented me from responding earlier.

An excellent reply George. You provided exactly what was needed by a snake keeper who clearly does not have access to other keepers from whom to learn. He provided as much relevant information as possible – species, age, length, weight, feeding regime and a detailed description of its behaviour. In return you provided firm figures for what would be appropriate for that particular animal at its current stage of development, as well as an explanation of why and how that would change in the future. What a truly comprehensive info session. That sort of response is the essence of why this forum exists. I tip my hat to you.

Edit: I omitted to state that you also provided a cogent explanation of its behaviour that ties in completely with the information he provided.
 
Last edited:
My Morelia spilota harrisoni is about 2 yo and I'm used to feeding him outside of the enclosure (frozen rats). Recently I wanted to switch to doing it inside the enclosure but he started to behave in a strange way:
- 1st time feeding inside the enclosure went without any issues
- 2nd time feeding, a few days later I noticed he was behaving in an unusual way. But he was in his sleeping position but his head was moving around and tracking me so I walked to the enclosure to see what was going on. When I touched the mesh wall next to him he tried to bite me. The next days went without any issue.
- 3rd time feeding, for the next 7-8 days he was awake during the day sitting in the middle of the terrarium in the attack pattern. Each time I was next to the terrarium he would come close to the wall and try to bite me hitting the glass wall of the enclosure.

I want to move to feed him inside the enclosure as moving him around after feeding is becoming difficult. Normally after feeding in his 2nd enclosure he would exit his feeding mode after like 20 minutes but right now after 4 hours, he would still try to eat my hand bitting two times and wrapping around it. But on the other hand, I'm afraid of trying to feed him inside as he becomes impossible to handle after.

Regarding the snake:
He is 480g and 125 cm male with very mellow behavior, you can touch his head or anything and he will not mind. I have had him for around 18 months. He is on the smaller side but healthy, his only issue is being mute. He cannot make any noise outside of gasping like 80yo guy but I checked it with two vets and they said 'it is not a bug it's a feature.
I personally wont feed inside the enclosure for that reason. Everyone has different opinions on this. Each to their own. It is easier, yes but you end up with a cage defensive snake. Maybe, next time, you have a 2nd smaller rodent ready to offer him. He may just be still hungry. Good luck đź‘Ť
 

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