pygmy monitors

[user 23122]

just got five of these youngsters 5 young gilleni that were up for sale looking for expert opinions on the lineage of these animals due to colour, pattern etc. All I see is mixture of three species gillens, bushi and caudo they are gillens on paper and totally awesome healthy little buggers with a couple of plump females in the group

 

[Bluetongue1]

@mrkos
They are not V. gilleni as they lack the distinctive banding on the dorsal surface present in this species. To me they initially looked more like V. bushi than V. caudolineatus, but now I am not so certain. A clear up-close photo of the entire dorsal surface would have helped more.
Check the belly and it should be highly spotted, rather than scarcely so, if they are bushi. The other distinguishing feature, which I cannot determine from your photo, is the general shape of the dorsal scales – clearly elongated in bushi vs only slightly so in caudolineatus.

If you still cannot firmly ID them using the information provided, then I would want to see the parents to try an determine if they are hybrid in origin. I’d certainly be asking some hard question about lineage/origins.

 

[user 23122]

@mrkos
They are not V. gillenii as they lack the distinctive banding on the dorsal surface present in this species. To me they initially looked more like V. bushii than V. caudolineatus, but now I am not so certain. A clear up-close photo of the entire dorsal surface would have helped more.
Check the belly and it should be highly spotted rather than scarcely so if they are bushii. The other distinguishing feature, which I cannot determine from your photo, is the general shape of the dorsal scales – clearly elongated in bushii vs only slightly so in caudolineatus.

If you still cannot firmly ID them using the information provided, then I would want to see the parents to try an determine if they are hybrid in origin. I’d certainly be asking some hard question about lineage/origins.

I reckon there is caudo in the mix as well but they do have a spotted belly somewhat I also have a pair of young pure bushi and they are a bit different to these guys as well. The question is they are on paper as gilleni but I don't think I will sell them as such, I thought 5 young gilleni with multiple females at breeding age for sale in qld was too good too be true I guess there is always a catch

@mrkos
They are not V. gilleni as they lack the distinctive banding on the dorsal surface present in this species. To me they initially looked more like V. bushi than V. caudolineatus, but now I am not so certain. A clear up-close photo of the entire dorsal surface would have helped more.
Check the belly and it should be highly spotted, rather than scarcely so, if they are bushi. The other distinguishing feature, which I cannot determine from your photo, is the general shape of the dorsal scales – clearly elongated in bushi vs only slightly so in caudolineatus.

If you still cannot firmly ID them using the information provided, then I would want to see the parents to try an determine if they are hybrid in origin. I’d certainly be asking some hard question about lineage/origins.

I just managed to track down the breeder from Melbourne they are 100 percent NT gilleni from an old selective bred collection for pattern etc

 

[Bluetongue1]

Is it possible to take a photo of the dorsal and ventral surfaces that is details enough to see the scales if enlarge? In the meantime I will see I can dig out the technical data I have on gilleni. While the patterning may not be 'normal' and can further be altered by line breeding, other morphological indicators of a species should not be altered. This lot has got me intrigued.

 

[user 23122]

They are all tucked away deep in a log at present and I have one laying eggs as we speak

Are you from Melbourne Blue you might know of the breeder he has been breeding these guys for years

 

[Bluetongue1]

Perth actually (as shown). Making the phone call is no drama as I already pay Australia -wide coverage, having fanily on the east coast. I rfeckHowever, I reckon he is only going to tell me the same as he has already told you. I'm just intrigued to see how true they hold to morphological descriptions of gilleni. The things I'm interested in looking at are scales and various body proportions. There are also significant differences in hemipene structure but that's vest left rather than trying to pop one of the poor little critters. From memory, I know there is a difference in body scale counts but I cannot recall off the top of my head if the two species overlap. Irrespective, I will have to leave it for a day or two as I have some other things to attend to. If taking the photos is problematic for you, I should be able to tell you what to look for.

Given your critters come from half the width of WA away, being of NT origin, I would expect to see some clear differentiation between them and caudos.

 

[user 23122]

I guess we leave it at that then, but when I get the chance I will take more photos

 

[user 43767]

I reckon there is caudo in the mix as well but they do have a spotted belly somewhat I also have a pair of young pure bushi and they are a bit different to these guys as well. The question is they are on paper as gilleni but I don't think I will sell them as such, I thought 5 young gilleni with multiple females at breeding age for sale in qld was too good too be true I guess there is always a catch


I just managed to track down the breeder from Melbourne they are 100 percent NT gilleni from an old selective bred collection for pattern etc

Hi, I just want to ask what "breeding age" means, because age in itself has nothing much to do with the animals being sexually mature (capable of breeding)?

 

[user 23122]

Hi, I just want to ask what "breeding age" means, because age in itself has nothing much to do with the animals being sexually mature (capable of breeding)?

you just answered your own question wow